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olution at the project or at any of the various dr forums would be very much appreciated by those of us who spend a lot of time working there as a side note let me just comment that having some kind of binding content dispute resolution is a perennial suggestion those of us who work frequently in the area have suggested it many times but the community has just never seemed to get behind it best regards transporterman talk 15 54 30 april 2012 utc it frustrates me that editors wish to leave over these kinds of issues i understand her frustration and have had a similar situation occur but hash it out betty you are reacting far better than i did but you still desire to leave that saddens me because my encounter with you left me thinking that you are a very collaboartive editor who takes into account what the other side is saying when they do talk and discuss if you leave couldn t the situation just get worse if our stronger voices leave simply because the felt their voice wasn t heard i think it was and hope you are encouraged to stick around longer betty amadscientist talk 21 55 30 april 2012 utc i so totally understand from experience where you are and i agree and support you betty the only difference is i tend to stand my ground which leaves the most absurd issues like day month year or month day year needing to go to arbcomm right now i m trying to explain why a list with 140 items needs numbering sometimes wikipedia works i think mostly by accident and sometimes it is an exhibition of stupidity to rival any parliament or congress every forum or at least many forums conduct themselves better with a more developed hierarchy but what goes on here admins are just the same chaos one step removed from editors they need their own set of dispute resolution and consensus processes above that is arbcomm which if i spent all day trying to make the process of requesting help more complex and difficult i d be lost for ideas because they ve covered everything already in anthropology in real life in history when a ruling group wants to completely distance itself from the population they invent their own language politicians negotiating trade agreements lawyers judges even doctors use ridiculously messy handwriting and a different word for every part of the body and every common complaint dermal abrasions if you scratch yourself the catholic church went to such trouble to insert itself between man and god it revived a dead language so you d need to pay an interpreter to pray on your behalf causing the lutheran church as a result when martin luther was sick of the bullshit he re wrote the bible translating it into the common man s language so anyone could read it and understand wikipedia s hierarchy is a layer of chaos above the chaos the a huge divide where nothing exists so yes of course such a small change would help and you can bet you won t see the day anytime soon fixing wikipedia i feel is like trying to tell the 500 party crashers you put in charge of your home 3 days ago that it s time to stop drinking and go home because you want to clean up and restore order well it can t be done as the people who like the witch burnings and pettiness and mob mentality will vote to keep it that way on the other hand the band plays lovely music and it s a nice place to hang out ah if only there was another boat nearby for all the editors who are leaping from the decks i wish you well betty penyulap 15 23 1 may 2012 utc npr story on truthiness latest comment 14 years ago 4 comments 4 people in discussion i was listening to an interesting story on npr today about the death of facts link they comment that hyperbole and outright lies have become so prevalent in the public sphere that even fact checking groups like politifact have trouble at times determining what is and isn t real they give one recent example of a republican congressman telling constituents that around 80 members of the democrat congressional delegation are communists we have a high standard of verifiability on wikipedia but we depend heavily on the mainstream media for our facts my question for jimbo is this how do you think wikipedia would fare if its articles were randomly audited by one of these fact checking groups and is this something that has ever been considered for wikipedia as an aside they also make some interesting points about how people react to corrections in news so that if a false story is initially published people seem to cling more to the original falsehood if they agreed with it and tend to agree with the correction if they disagreed with the original story so for political media the idea is that false news creates an even larger chasm of ideologies this interests me in relation to articles in wikipedia because if a reader reads the wrong version first we might have altered their willingness to accept a future more accurate article avanu talk 02 24 1 may 2012 utc wikipedia tends to restrict the truth by sins of omission as i have mentioned before when wikipedia articles have been officially judged for accuracy there has been a systemic bias which gives the impression that wikipedia articles are extremely accurate based on what is included in the articles because the amount of omitted accurate text is difficult to measure an earlier example was a french official accused of assaulting a maid at a new york city hotel and within days several people had tried to add sourced text which questioned if the woman s actions had been part of a conspiracy to frame the politician however other people kept deleting the conspiracy faked possibility and slanted the article to match only some of the sources but eventually the maid was tied to prior conspiracy incidents which undermined her credibility as a witness and the charged were dropped wikipedia s text was quite accurate for what it stated but it failed wp npov by minimizing the conspiracy concept suggested by some reliable sources and left the impression that the maid s relations with the french official were strong evidence of his guilt rather than calculated for a potential set up a similar style of omission occurred in the murder of a british student in italy where her roommate was accused of the slaying but some wp editors kept removing the fact that the victim s 300 euro rent money was missing and that there was insufficient dna evidence to have charged her roommate in a british or u s criminal court despite numerous sources indicating the importance of those issues years later the roommate was acquitted and a destitute unemployed drifter was convicted who went dancing after the murder flush with cash 300 euros but that information was not allowed into earlier versions of the article another example is a black teenager who was shot in central florida in february 2012 by a community crime patrol watchman and the teenager had a bag of candy can of iced tea mobile phone earplug and 22 but the money part was removed from the article contrary to wp npov allowing rumors that the candy tea had been stolen by a teenager found with no money eventually reports about store cameras confirmed the valid purchase at a local 7 eleven store but purposely omitting the sourced 22 allowed the prior rumors to persist such sins of omission in purposely viciously omitting text noted in several sources is what makes wikipedia articles appear on the surface to past tests of accuracy but infuriates people who look at the big picture of how text is slanted by purposely omitting text which would have provided a broader encyclopedic balance to dispell rumors and better explain the overall topic wikid77 05 44 1 may 2012 utc though i ve disagreed with you on an example recently i agree with this overall sentiment and these cases sound good i ve just started an essay wikipedia à la carte if you would like to detail these examples if you have links handy in your browser history for example it might strengthen the essay wnt talk 12 21 1 may 2012 utc avanu re my question for jimbo is this how do you think wikipedia would fare if its articles were randomly audited by one of these fact checking groups and is this something that has ever been considered for wikipedia have you read reliability of wikipedia a number of people have asked this question a number of independent studies have been done nickct talk 16 11 1 may 2012 utc why did wikipedia change its export function so it no longer works with any other wikis latest comment 14 years ago 5 comments 4 people in discussion earlier this year wikipedia changed special export so that everything exported is in a different format than the one it had previously used for years this means that other wikis such as wikia can no longer import pages was that done on purpose d r e a m focus 22 17 30 april 2012 utc you will probably get a quicker answer at wp vpt where the techie types hang out ukexpat talk 02 30 1 may 2012 utc i m afraid i don t know anything about it jimbo wales talk 09 46 1 may 2012 utc apparently wikipedia is using a newer version and wikia hasn t updated their stuff in awhile i have no idea where to post over there which would likely get noticed by any staff that would do anything about it since you own the place you might want to mention that to them since a rather large number of wikia content did start on wikipedia i still take pages about to be deleted here and export their full histories over to the manga wiki and elsewhere at times d r e a m focus 22 04 1 may 2012 utc this works for me try http www wikia com special contact bug 70 58 10 111 talk 04 14 2 may 2012 utc am i out of line on this it makes me sick to my stomach and i think it s violative of our tos as well latest comment 14 years ago 156 comments 51 people in discussion could you have a look at wikipedia administrators noticeboard incidents user cla68 advertising his services as a paid wikipedia editor as is often the case your name is being invoked orange mike talk 19 51 25 april 2012 utc looks like a pretty effective troll to me par for the course for this particular editor jimbo wales talk 20 57 25 april 2012 utc there are comments there regarding comments you made at some point on this issue not on cla68 himself but on the issue itself i am sure if you re bothering you can read it i am vehemently in opposition to paid editing we all know it goes on but under no circumstances is it to be tolerated if we know about it next thing we ll have is paid supports at rfa at fac and elsewhere paid editing leads to graft and the ruination of this website mongo 22 25 25 april 2012 utc i do hereby declare that for 500 i will support an rfa but no seriously paid editing occurs fact the question is putting limits controls on it the first step is to have people who are paid to edit to declare such and to start to define criteria surrounding paid editors e g declaring who is paying them and or what they are being asked to write this is only going to become more common place in the future hell i saw on another page that the smithsonian now has a wikipedian in residence undoubtably other large organizations have employees whose job it is to monitor articles and or edit them do you doubt that romney obama don t have people editing their articles and pushing their agendas wouldn t it be nice to know whom as for cla doing this as a business more power to him a short note on his page that he will work for money is acceptable although i do object to his listing prices that is advertising but would you be opposed to my putting in my bio my company and what i do would you be opposed to my mentioniing that i am an independent consultant in the audit industry and then linking my page no that is par for the course the question is not what he says but how he says it balloonman poppa balloon 01 19 26 april 2012 utc additionally am prepared to commit to writing a policy which prohibits paid editing the enforcement of such will be impractical but if in stone all will know where the website falls on this matter mongo 22 28 25 april 2012 utc maybe you should wait till the coi rfc is closed before undertaking to write such a policy monty 845 23 41 25 april 2012 utc have fun i don t see that ever reaching community consensus just from observation it looks like most of the community who have weighed in thus far fall on the it s how you re editing not why you re editing that matters side silver seren c 00 04 26 april 2012 utc i think that s a wild misinterpretation of the evidence a handful of noisy editors mainly conflicted themselves are in favor most editors are opposed but don t bother stalking and killing every discussion about it when we get to a proper project wide vote the correct answer will be reached jimbo wales talk 00 20 26 april 2012 utc and like i said i don t believe the community is going to be on your side the majority understands that everyone has a coi some more than others and that it is through their actions on wiki that determines whether they are allowed to edit not their coi we have plenty of editors who have a strong coi that are able to edit quite neutrally without issue and if one bans paid editing it raises the question about anyone else who has a strong coi and whether we should be allowed them to edit then those with a slightly less coi and those with slightly less than that until you end up with nobody being allowed to edit because they all have a coi as in most cases they wouldn t be editing an article subject unless they were personally interested in it and have an opinion on it luckily most editors understand that it is for these very reasons that coi is largely irrelevant and only acts as a caution but not as a wall all that matters is whether an editor is making neutral contributions if they are then it doesn t matter if they have a strong positive or negative opinion on the subject if they re editing neutrally who cares silver seren c 00 30 26 april 2012 utc this fallacious line of argument has been dealt with many times well no sense in you going on and on about it you are in the extreme minority here and i can t possibly convince you jimbo wales talk 00 33 26 april 2012 utc ec i am in the extreme minority on your talk page yes that s obvious that s because your talk page is often an echo chamber for your opinions that doesn t mean it is at all representative of the actual community opinion on a subject silver seren c 00 46 26 april 2012 utc i don t think that i can convince silverseren because i think he s an advocate for an extreme position so this is for those who might be naively taken in by his misreading of community consensus and who find his argument up above tempting to believe i have just one simple thought experiment for you right now there is a big lawsuit going on between google and oracle the judge in the case is judge william alsup all of judge alsup s work in the case is public he s in a public courtroom and when he publishes his opinion in the case that will be made public too it will be subject t...
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