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paratory draft for the decree on the church contained this long held teaching following pius xii in identifying the mystical body of christ with the catholic church 2 the american ecclesiologist joseph a komonchak chronicles this discussion of this teaching at the council according to him the council s doctrinal commission explained the change in the final draft of lumen gentium from is to subsists in so that the expression may better accord with the affirmation about ecclesial elements which are present elsewhere komonchak points out that since some wanted to strengthen the statement others to weaken it the doctrinal commission of vatican ii decided to stay with the change of verb he suggests that following the first rule of conciliar hermeneutics we should examine statements of vatican ii about these ecclesial elements found outside the catholic church he mentions that the same document lumen gentium preferred to speak of those fully incorporated into the church and avoided the term membership though without explaining why it mentioned that several elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible structure such elements or vestiges mentioned as present elsewhere include the influence of the spirit aids to salvation a partial profession of faith and sacraments this is reinforced in the decree on ecumenism unitatis redintegratio which says very many of the most significant elements and endowments that together go to build up and to give life to the church itself can exist outside the visible boundaries of the catholic church the written word of god the life of grace faith hope and charity with other interior gifts of the holy spirit as well as visible elements and not a few of the sacred actions of the christian religion the decree then says that only the catholic church possesses the fullness of the means of salvation 6 cardinal walter kasper has pointed out that concerning the claim that the fullness of the church of christ resides in the catholic church that this does not refer to subjective holiness but to the sacramental and institutional means of salvation the sacraments and the ministries 2 ongoing dispute edit sebastian tromp edit sebastian tromp a dutch jesuit a scholastic theologian and close to pope pius xii is considered to have been the main though unacknowledged author of mystici corporis christi as advisor to cardinal alfredo ottaviani during vatican ii tromp was also according to existing tape recordings and diaries the father of subsistit which to his understanding of latin did not mean anything new but indicated completeness 7 but francis a sullivan pointed out 8 if one considers the fact that the draft in which est had been changed to subsistit in was the first one that spoke of churches and ecclesiastical communities that are found outside the catholic church one can hardly escape the conclusion that the doctrinal commission did not agree with tromp who had forcefully insisted that subsistit in must be understood to be exclusivum with the consequence that outside the catholic church there could be nothing but elements congregation for the doctrine of the faith edit in a 1985 notification on a book of catholic priest leonardo boff the congregation for the doctrine of the faith stated 9 boff s relativizing concept of the church stands at the basis of the radical criticisms directed at the hierarchic structure of the catholic church in order to justify it l boff appeals to the constitution lumen gentium no 8 of the second vatican council from the council s famous statement haec ecclesia sc unica christi ecclesia subsistit in ecclesia catholica this church that is the sole church of christ subsists in the catholic church he derives a thesis which is exactly the contrary to the authentic meaning of the council text for he affirms in fact it sc the sole church of christ may also be present in other christian churches p 75 but the council had chosen the word subsistit subsists exactly in order to make clear that one sole subsistence of the true church exists whereas outside her visible structure only elementa ecclesiae elements of church exist these being elements of the same church tend and conduct toward the catholic church lumen gentium 8 the decree on ecumenism expresses the same doctrine unitatis redintegratio 3 4 and it was restated precisely in the declaration mysterium ecclesiae in dominus iesus 2000 the congregation for the doctrine of the faith stated with the expression subsistit in the second vatican council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements on the one hand that the church of christ despite the divisions which exist among christians continues to exist fully only in the catholic church and on the other hand that outside of her structure many elements can be found of sanctification and truth that is in those churches and ecclesial communities which are not yet in full communion with the catholic church but with respect to these it needs to be stated that they derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the catholic church therefore there exists a single church of christ which subsists in the catholic church governed by the successor of peter and by the bishops in communion with him 10 in a 2007 an official responsa the congregation for the doctrine of the faith described the use of subsistit as follows in number 8 of the dogmatic constitution lumen gentium subsistence means this perduring historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by christ in the catholic church in which the church of christ is concretely found on this earth t he word subsists can only be attributed to the catholic church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith i believe in the one church and this one church subsists in the catholic church 11 some identified what they considered to be inconsistencies in the congregation s own 2007 responsa and pointed out that it was at variance with several prominent theologians who took a more liberal interpretation such as christopher butler yves congar georges tavard joseph a komonchak and francis a sullivan 12 2 cardinal ratzinger edit in a 2000 interview with frankfurter allgemeine zeitung then cardinal ratzinger head of the congregation for the doctrine of the faith later elected pope benedict xvi responded to criticism of dominus iesus as follows 13 the concept expressed by is to be is far broader than that expressed by to subsist to subsist is a very precise way of being that is to be as a subject which exists in itself thus the council fathers meant to say that the being of the church as such is a broader entity than the roman catholic church but within the latter it acquires in an incomparable way the character of a true and proper subject avery dulles edit cardinal dulles argues subsitit in to be an expression deliberately chosen to allow for the ecclesial reality of other christian communities implying that non catholic christians are members of the body of christ and thus of the church 14 hervé legrand edit catholic priest hervé legrand fr states that the part concerning subsistit in within the 1985 notification concerning leonard boff s books as well as within dominus iesus are wrong he states that recourse to the acta synodalia of vatican ii makes it possible to establish with almost absolute certainty that the recourse to the verb to subsist was done in order to avoid the exclusive identification between the church of christ and the catholic church and that the decision taken in commission offers no trace of a scholastic meaning given to the term subsistit but it offers evidence of the use of this word to avoid the pure and simple identification between the church of christ and our catholic church 15 society of saint pius x edit the society of saint pius x consider lumen gentium one of several demarcations of when the post vatican ii church has issued problematic statements pointing to the use of subsistit in rather than est as an abdication of the catholic church s to the sspx compulsory identification of itself alone as god s church 16 the sspx refers in particular to the encyclicals mystici corporis 1943 and humani generis 1950 by pope pius xii which assert that the church of christ and the catholic church are perfectly identical 17 they also refer to pope pius xi s mortalium animos 1928 claiming that it states that non catholic communities belong to a false christian religion completely foreign to the one church of christ 17 see also edit extra ecclesiam nulla salus hermeneutics of the second vatican council references edit 1 2 lumen gentium 8 latin accessed 2009 06 13 lumen gentium 8 english accessed 2011 10 25 1 2 3 4 the church of christ and the churches is the vatican retreating from ecumenism america magazine 2007 08 27 retrieved 2019 12 17 peter hebblethwaite pope paul vi paulist press 1993 mystici corporis christi june 29 1943 pius xii www vatican va retrieved 2021 06 23 humani generis august 12 1950 pius xii www vatican va retrieved 2023 03 02 27 some say they are not bound by the doctrine explained in our encyclical letter of a few years ago mystici corporis christi and based on the sources of revelation which teaches that the mystical body of christ and the roman catholic church are one and the same thing some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true church in order to gain eternal salvation others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of christian faith 28 these and like errors it is clear have crept in among certain of our sons who are deceived by imprudent zeal for souls or by false science to them we are compelled with grief to repeat once again truths already well known and to point out with solicitude clear errors and dangers of error komonchak joseph july 12 2007 the subsisting church commonweal magazine retrieved 2019 09 24 alexandra von teuffenbach die bedeutung des subsistit in lg8 zum selbstverständnis der katholischen kirche herbert utz verlag münchen 2002 isbn 3 8316 0187 9 and alexandra von teuffenbach konzilstagebuch sebastian tromp sj mit erläuterungen and akten aus der arbeit der theologischen kommission 2006 editrice pontificia università gregoriana isbn 978 88 7839 057 7 sullivan sj francis 2006 quaestio disputata a response to karl becker sj on the meaning of subsistit in theological studies 67 2 395 409 doi 10 1177 004056390606700207 s2cid 55973885 notification on the book church charism and power by father leonardo boff o f m www vatican va retrieved 2023 03 03 dominus iesus www vatican va retrieved 2023 03 03 responses to some questions regarding certain aspects of the doctrine on the church www vatican va retrieved 2023 03 03 where is the church vatican2voice org retrieved 2019 12 17 answers to main objections against dominus iesus ewtn archived from the original on 2001 02 14 retrieved 2023 06 15 dulles avery 1989 a half century of ecclesiology theological studies 50 3 419 442 doi 10 1177 004056398905000301 issn 0040 5639 pp 420 431 legrand hervé 2006 quelques réflexions ecclésiologiques sur l histoire du concile vatican ii de g alberigo revue des sciences philosophiques et théologiques in french 90 3 495 520 doi 10 3917 rspt 903 0495 issn 0035 2209 talk by fr franz schmidberger first assistant to the superior general of the sspx archived 2008 10 17 at the wayback machine february 22 2001 1 2 de lacoste bernard 2025 09 24 de multiples contradictions la porte latine in french retrieved 2025 10 05 further reading edit salaverri joachim nicolau michaele 2015 195x book iii chapter ii article i thesis 24 1006 1007 sacrae theologiae summa vol ib on the church of christ on holy scripture translated by baker kenneth ramsey new jersey keep the faith pp 400 1 isbn 978 0 9912268 7 0 oclc 942788647 becker karl josef 14 december 2005 an examination of subsistit in a profound theological perspective l osservatore romano weekly edition in english retrieved 2023 03 03 via ewtn global catholic television network sullivan francis a 2006 a response to karl becker s j on the meaning of subsistit in pdf theological studies 67 2 395 409 doi 10 1177 004056390606700207 issn 0040 5639 s2cid 55973885 archived from the original pdf on 5 march 2015 schelkens karim 2008 lumen gentium s subsistit in revisited the catholic church and christian unity after vatican ii theological studies 69 4 875 893 doi 10 1177 004056390806900406 issn 0040 5639 s2cid 55115460 v t e second vatican council documents constitutions sacrosanctum concilium sacred liturgy lumen gentium the church dei verbum divine revelation gaudium et spes the church and the world decrees inter mirifica media orientalium ecclesiarum eastern catholics unitatis redintegratio ecumenism christus dominus role of bishops perfectae caritatis renewal of religious life optatam totius formation of priests apostolicam actuositatem role of the laity ad gentes missions presbyterorum ordinis role of priests declarations gravissimum educationis christian education nostra aetate relations with non christians dignitatis humanae religious liberty people popes john xxiii paul vi moderators leo joseph suenens gregorio pietro agagianian julius döpfner giacomo lercaro council of presidents eugène tisserant achille liénart ignatius gabriel i tappouni norman gilroy francis spellman enrique pla y deniel josef frings ernesto ruffini antonio caggiano bernardus johannes alfrink cardinal presidents of commissions alfredo ottaviani paolo marella amleto giovanni cicognani benedetto aloisi masella pietro ciriaci valerio valeri gregorio pietro agagianian arcadio larraona saralegui giuseppe pizzardo fernando cento other council leaders augustin bea gustavo testa alberto di jorio pericle felici general catholic ecumenical councils central preparatory commission aggiornamento sign of the times gaudet mater ecclesia peritus nouvelle théologie coetus internationalis patrum subsistit in history of the catholic church since 1962 catholic church and ecumenism mass of paul vi other hermeneutics of the second vatican council pact of the catacombs theology of pope benedict xvi continuity of vatican ii catholic orthodox joint declaration of 1965 criticism traditionalist catholicism sedevacantism palmarian catholic church wreckovation catholicism portal vatican city portal name media category templates wikiproject v t e catholic church index outline glossary lists by country history timeline jesus in christianity ecclesiastical history legal history early church church fathers apostolic fathers history of the papacy primacy great church ante nicene period constantine first seven ecumenical councils nicaea i chalcedon late antiquity biblical canon monasticism middle ages islamic conquests pope gregory i papal states schism 1054 investiture controversy crusades schism 1378 inquisition universities scholasticism age of discovery modern era protestan...