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Text of the page (random words):
habetic but it s still part of the ub family the 1954 doc quotes an early conference as defining universal braille as french braille and also saying that full european uniformity in uncontracted braille was achieved in due course p 26 full uniformity was not achieved the only uniformity was in the original 25 or 26 letters of the alphabet that is in the basic latin alphabet assignments beyond that would seem to not be part of ub unless we have a pub that actually defines ub as more than those 26 and lists what they are so we can check whether an assignment is ub or not kwami talk 03 18 5 may 2012 utc reply i m sorry but nga is most definitely not a digraph or ligature in tibetan apart from chinese brailles none of these braille systems encode an intermediary romanization of the languages just the actual script and how it is analysed and segmented by the language community if you want to check on whether an assignment is ub or not you go to page 74 the world braille chart and it seems abundantly clear from the dozens of pages between page 26 and page 74 not to mention the braille charts from page 80 on that the phonetic associations in 74 79 were used as the basis for unifying the scripts of asia africa india ceylon perso arabic and urdu not to mention even if your basis for evaluating braille systems as unified is based merely on romanization tibetan braille fails quite badly at that task too there s a c j z y and s that contradict the standard latin script braille van isaac ws contribs 04 20 5 may 2012 utc reply they all approximately fit your abundantly clear is your opinion not a demonstrable fact the opposite is just as abundantly clear to me pinyin is just as bad a fit to european standards of latin but we don t therefore claim it s not latin tibetan is part of the same family of alphabets as most of the rest of braille it is not a distinct script the way korean is nor is it a reordering the way algerian is kwami talk 05 16 11 may 2012 utc reply obviously i was talking about romanization from the standpoint of whether something should be considered a digraph or not and the problem with your perspective is that the unified brailles like arabic hebrew bharati and armenian don t just approximately fit like you said they really fit if you have a letter in one of those scripts that matches the sound archetype for the braille pattern it s either assigned to that pattern or another matching letter is i look through those braille systems and there is just no variation in that rule tibetan braille just plain fails at that basic litmus for the record this is my take on whether something should be considered unified braille take the native script pinyin kana hangul for han ideographs see if any basic letters are assigned to wrong patterns if they are see if all the best fit patterns are taken by other good fit letter pattern combinations if you have multiple wrong patterns and there aren t good fit letters interfering with those assignments i think that means that it was not unified it was designed from another perspective it seems clear from bharati that ligatures are not assigned on the same basis क्ष kṣa is probably a best fit for x but ऒ o was randomly assigned instead likewise digraphs and accented letters in those latin script brailles that we have documentation of do not seem to follow the unified braille assignments in any systematic way either so native script not transliteration just the native script digraphs ligatures and letters accent pattern matches are not considered so my question to you is what is your litmus for classification van isaac ws contribs 01 10 12 may 2012 utc reply i m not sure i understand the question but let s see looking at each braille letter and comparing its value with the one assigned to unified braille greek fails 8 russian fails 8 hebrew fails 8 arabic fails 8 german fails 8 french fails 10 hindi fails 10 sinhala as hindi 5 tibetan fails 11 so tibetan is about as regular as hindi or french and not as far off as sinhalese btw tibetan ng is not a fail because 2356 does not have an assigned value in unified braille and so cannot be a mismatch unless you want to include punctuation but then the counts for the others will go up too my litmus is does the alphabet follow the french pattern for tibetan the answer is obviously yes kwami talk 04 29 12 may 2012 utc reply here s a comparison with french braille a a b p b k kʰ d t d g k g zero h ʒ j same as german hebrew k k l l m m n n p p q tʃ dʒ same as russian close to chinese hindi r r s s z t t ks tʰ for x french english russian hindi also fail j tʃʰ unique to tibetan z tsʰ close to german chinese s pʰ unique to tibetan ɛ s for th better than french s th y tʰ for 2nd t tibetan matches french fails i ʃ for sh tibetan matches french fails o ts for th better than french y ʃ for 2nd h same as russian hebrew better than english french or hindi e h for 2nd d russian hebrew also fail w w poetry ɲ for 2nd a greek hebrew also fail i m sorry but your litmus is does the alphabet follow the french pattern and french fails 16 of the time i m completely stuck if you don t recognize how absurd that is van isaac ws contribs 10 26 12 may 2012 utc reply requesting third opinion edit i m tired of fighting this thing and you just reverted it again so i m calling for a third opinion rather than edit warring over it our problem is that the most recent source we have that explicitly lists unified braille systems is the 54 unesco document http unesdoc unesco org images 0007 000711 071103eb pdf and it has only french english greek russian arabic hebrew devanagari bharati swahili and indonesian brailles in the world braille chart any other braille system listed as unified braille is wp or whether it is controversial tibetan braille or not yugoslav braille i offered a geographic based compromise by which we could put the dispute behind us and it was rejected without an offer for moving forward it just got reverted again so i m asking for help van isaac ws contribs 03 33 18 june 2012 utc reply perhaps we should abandon the term unified braille then tibetan is part of the french braille family whatever you want to call it kwami talk 06 43 18 june 2012 utc reply whether you call it french or unified doesn t change that tibetan does not seem to be based on it van isaac ws contribs 07 48 18 june 2012 utc reply of course it s based on it you ve said so yourself i don t understand your argument kwami talk 08 33 18 june 2012 utc reply hi there what does it mean to be part of the unified braille system the wp page says that the standard was last updated 101 years ago so i m unclear on whether a unified system even exists anymore bdb484 talk 14 10 18 june 2012 utc reply yeah that may be a little misleading they developed the unified braille back then getting english and other european brailles unified but we know that the process was continuing up through the 1950s our last source of explicit listing of unified systems with bharati and arabic the standard was agreed way back in the 1800s but the world braille council who developed the system has presumably been unifying braille systems ever since van isaac ws contribs 21 38 18 june 2012 utc reply response to third opinion request if you don t have a reliable source that says tibetan braille is in the unified braille system then you are right that putting it there would be or and you should not do it navigational templates are still a part of wikipedia and must adhere to policy including the policy against including original research they are not merely organization tools in which editors can choose how to organize articles exempt from the requirement to have reliable sourcing on the contrary the policy on nav boxes is clear navigation templates provide navigation between related articles if the articles are not established as related by reliable sources in the actual articles then it is probably not a good idea to interlink them following this policy using a geographical based system to organize the braille variants would not be acceptable either unless such organization is established that way by reliable sources in the articles my opinion would be to classify any braille variant that doesn t have a category established clearly from a reliable source in a neutral category such as other coastside talk 20 01 18 june 2012 utc reply placing it in other would also be or since it would be a claim that it s not part of one of the existing categories not only that but we know it s wrong we re allowed to use common sense when organizing wp in the beginning there were two systems adopting the french order modified to fit the new language or reordering per the alphabetical order of the new language since then two other systems have been developed japanese and korean which are not based on sorting order afaict algerian is the only re ordered sorting order system still in use all others are based on the french order though in some such as chinese new letters outnumber the ones taken from french kwami talk 23 21 18 june 2012 utc reply the thread above is not a debate about how to apply wp policy it is a debate over your own understanding of the braille systems e g i think the major aspects that are non unified are tibetan ca cha ja nya are unified th y q a2 tibetan pha tsa tsha dza are s2 x z dh2 and tibetan za a are unified sa d2 emphasis added because this is your own personal interpretation it is or and should not be used to classify tibetan braille you need to find a third party source that says how to classify tibetan braille and use that in the nav box if you don t have such a source then you don t have a npov way to do it debating amongst yourselves without a reliable third party source isn t going to change that coastside talk 13 49 19 june 2012 utc reply script classifications edit latest comment 14 years ago 9 comments 3 people in discussion how about this as an option v t e braille braille cells braille braille ascii braille patterns unicode block braille scripts english braille grade 2 braille unified english braille code european albanian braille bulgarian braille greek braille russian braille yugoslav braille east asian cantonese braille chinese braille japanese braille korean braille south asian bharati braille india vietnamese braille thai braille tibetan braille middle eastern algerian braille arabic braille armenian braille hebrew braille symbolic braille music canadian currency marks gardner salinas braille code gs8 gs6 nemeth braille technique braille embosser braille technology braille translator braille watch mountbatten brailler perforation perkins brailler refreshable braille display slate and stylus persons louis braille charles barbier valentin haüy thakur vishva narain singh sabriye tenberken william bell wait organisations braille institute of america braille without borders japan braille library national braille association blindness organizations schools for the blind other tactile writing moon type new york point night writing tactile alphabet vibratese related topics accessible publishing braille literacy robobraille usa braille flag it gets rid of the pov or on whether a particular system is unified or not and is probably more useful for navigational purposes anyway van isaac ws contribs 00 27 12 may 2012 utc reply i don t find it helpful for me the interesting thing about x braille is not that it s used in country x but what kind of system it is in this table the different systems are all scrambled up i mean imagine if we had a template for linear scripts where lakhota latin cree syllabics and cherokee were all on the same line because they re all in north america while vietnamese latin japanese kana kanji hindi nagari and urdu arabic were on another line and turkish latin arabic arabic and berber were on a third how would that be helpful most of the world s braille systems follow french braille we re at unified because you didn t like latin and now you have objections to unified but whichever name we choose they form an clear family that is reflected in historical accounts of our sources then there are reordering systems like algerian which are simply the numeric code allocated to the alphabet i think that deserves a separate section actually there were more of them at one time and we might expand some day then there are novel systems like korean and japanese which are neither of the above orthogonal to that are systems which are not alphabetic such as chinese though the non alphabetic part is similar to the contractions in french braille maybe we can called the section on french derived braille french derived kwami talk 01 01 12 may 2012 utc reply except that this is a navigation template not an i think this is neat template that s what articles are for so are we arguing about a classification that is irrelevant to the average user eschewing that which is actually helpful i m trying to throw you a bone so we can get past the argument above and it s disappointing that you aren t willing to help out so the question i have for you is simple if you had no a priori knowledge and you were looking for a particular braille system how would you organize the template because that s what navboxes are for helping people find information if you were looking for the braille for a language that we don t have an article for how would you organize it so that you don t have to read through the entire list a couple times to make sure it s not there van isaac ws contribs 10 15 12 may 2012 utc reply i don t think the writing system shoud be leading here first association should be language x is written in braille y the writing system is a descriptive property not a defining property clearly there are under two dozen braille languages here at wp they cold be together sorted alphabetically a clarifying extension for unified will benecessary depiep talk 10 35 18 june 2012 utc reply per depiep s objections here and elsewhere i removed the typological classification alphabet abugida semi syllabary and integrated english as just another language currently then we list three classes abc ordered braille re ordered braille only found today in algerian afaik and non numerically ordered systems japanese korean kwami talk 23 53 21 july 2012 utc reply btw i can understand how french based may not be the best way to convey abc order since many are not directly based on french that s just the best that i was able to do i ve repeatedly said that i m open to suggestions for better wording how s international order or french order based scripts kwami talk 03 11 29 july 2012 utc reply the name really isn t the crux of the problem even if french based is lacking the problem is trying to shoehorn braille systems that are associated with each other by the common latin letters with systems that are associated with each other including a few of the latin script systems by phonetic values and then trying to cram in other systems that aren t la...