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Text of the page (random words):
template talk chinese language wikipedia jump to content main menu main menu move to sidebar hide navigation main page contents current events random article about wikipedia contact us contribute help learn to edit community portal recent changes upload file special pages search search appearance donate create account log in personal tools donate create account log in contents move to sidebar hide top 1 hyphenation and capitalization 2 comments 2 historical spoken chinese 4 comments 3 classification 4 taiwanese and shanghainese 5 dungan 6 revert 7 rename 1 comment 8 taishanese 1 comment 9 second cantonese link 8 comments 10 bopomofo 1 comment 11 pinghua and tuhua 2 comments 12 template size 3 comments 13 repetition 7 comments toggle the table of contents template talk chinese language add languages page contents not supported in other languages add topic template talk english read edit view history tools tools move to sidebar hide actions read edit add topic view history general what links here related changes upload file permanent link page information get shortened url switch to legacy parser print export download as pdf printable version in other projects appearance move to sidebar hide from wikipedia the free encyclopedia latest comment 3 months ago by democracydeprivationdisorder in topic pinghua and tuhua this template does not require a rating on wikipedia s content assessment scale it is of interest to the following wikiprojects china china portal this template is within the scope of wikiproject china a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of china related articles on wikipedia if you would like to participate please visit the project page where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks china wikipedia wikiproject china template wikiproject china china related languages language portal this template is within the scope of wikiproject languages a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of languages on wikipedia if you would like to participate please visit the project page where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks languages wikipedia wikiproject languages template wikiproject languages language hyphenation and capitalization edit latest comment 22 years ago 2 comments 1 person in discussion before anyone wonders about the difference between danzhou and min dong and pu xian let me try to explain the reason behind my choice danzhou is a place the name is one word same goes for hakka pinghua putonghua etc min dong is two words so there s a hyphen dong or east is not capitalized because it is not a place same goes for min nan etc pu xian is two words and really means putian xianyou two different places so both words are capitalized same goes for shao jiang and qiong wen ran 13 35 may 22 2004 utc pinyin does not use hyphens to separate syllables joint or otherwise taoster 19 49 22 may 2004 utc reply which is true what would you suggest then ran 13 49 may 23 2004 utc separate the phonemes with a non breaking space the hyphen adds ambiguity as to whether the name is purely pinyin a combination of english and pinyin or wade giles taoster 04 20 26 may 2004 utc reply historical spoken chinese edit latest comment 22 years ago 4 comments 2 people in discussion i changed historical spoken chinese to historical chinese speaking of middle chinese we usually make study on its phonology but the middle chinese sounds are more or less artificially constructed ones to read rather than to speak nanshu 04 06 23 may 2004 utc reply then how would you separate the concept of say wenyan and ancient chinese ran 13 49 may 23 2004 utc with respect to historical chinese the nomenclature on these various phases is somewhat confused depending on where you look for instance middle chinese was called ancient chinese c f karlgren i started a page a while ago on old chinese and this ought to replace ancient chinese otherwise things could get confusing in that page is another stub page on historical chinese phonology perhaps that should replace historical spoken chinese since it isn t a term found in much of the literature i ve read dylanwhs 18 42 23 may 2004 utc reply done ran 00 06 may 24 2004 utc i m talking about the header it should cover all items in the cell otherwise we need to rearrange them now will proto min and proto mandarin be specific to phonology i don t think so nanshu 02 39 26 may 2004 utc reply it is possible because of the precedence in this chart concerning the subdivisions of min that other subdivisions of other languages such as mandarin yue hakka etc will be listed as places it seems much more sensible to me that pages listing these sub dialects of various languages should do this task instead for example wu dialects now wu linguistics list different dialects on that page dylanwhs 20 24 26 may 2004 utc reply classification edit why list subdivisions of min here but not subdivisions of the other divisions why not break off all the subdivisions so this stays a manageable size jia ng 21 36 23 jun 2004 utc because the subdivisions of min really are that different ethnologue for example lists all the subdivisions of min as separate languages ran 03 14 jun 24 2004 utc taiwanese and shanghainese edit about my last revert first thing taiwanese is a part of min nan second thing please do not put any second level divisions in there except for the divisions of min if we start dividing mandarin wu etc and putting all of those in that box then the box will quickly grow to infinite size the only reason i split min up and not the others is because min bei min nan etc are commonly listed as separately languages such as by ethnologue ran 15 05 jul 30 2004 utc dungan edit regarding this edit is the dungan language written in cyrillic script an official writing standard and is it one of the spoken varieties insta ntnood 10 35 jun 26 2005 utc revert edit to 61 144 54 45 the subcategories of min are set out separately because ethnologue treats them as separate languages i ve set out hui jin and pinghua differently from danzhouhua etc because while hui jin and pinghua are generally recognized categories danzhouhua etc are more like individual dialects that haven t been studied sufficiently to be categorized i ve put standard mandarin before standard cantonese because standard mandarin is by far official in many more places and many more contexts than standard cantonese i ve put yue instead of cantonese because i feel that yue is clearer see also the discussion going on at talk cantonese linguistics ran talk june 28 2005 20 09 utc rename edit latest comment 20 years ago 1 comment 1 person in discussion i propose a move to languages in the chinese language family to change the instances of dialect to language this is because the dialects are not dialects but langauges its as simple as that 100110100 08 22 29 july 2006 utc reply taishanese edit latest comment 19 years ago 1 comment 1 person in discussion shouldn t taishanese be included since for example we have several divisions of min and do people know what first level means wouldn t major or primary be more clear badagnani 01 38 18 july 2007 utc reply second cantonese link edit latest comment 16 years ago 8 comments 3 people in discussion i ve just removed this again for the same reasons as before but clearly the edit summary didn t adequately summarise the reasons so here they are first the link is a duplicate of the link in the yue section so is not needed though on its own that s a poor reason more importantly the reason why there s two links to one article is two articles were merged after a long discussion archived here the article standard cantonese was merged into canton dialect before that was renamed cantonese the consensus was cantonese is not a standard language in the formal sense so a separate article was not needed by the same reasoning is is not an ausbausprache so it made sense to remove the link from that section johnblackburne words deeds 15 07 19 april 2010 utc reply thanks for enumerating your reasons here it indeed wasn t clear from the summary of your original change that removed the link while it s true that cantonese isn t a standard language in the formal sense it does occupy a status different from that of many other chinese varieties the archived discussion you linked to revolved around where to draw the line in the content of the merged article on the prestige semi standardized cantonese dialect however nowhere in that discussion did anyone object to the description of this dialect as an ausbausprache a language does not have to be a formal standardized language to be an ausbausprache which is a term that s used to describe a language based on its social usage in hong kong cantonese does serve as a de facto language of administration in government it is the primary language of instruction in addition it enjoys a widely used and understood despite the lack of formal standardization written form all elements that define an ausbausprache while its true that it may be redundant to list cantonese again under the ausbausprache section you admit yourself that this alone is a poor reason to omit it umofomia talk 18 03 19 april 2010 utc reply imo it s a bit ambiguous whether cantonese is a standard language or not it s a borderline case i don t have a problem with it being added to mandarin but i wonder about other lects there s a movement to push taiwanese as a standard prestige lect and then of course there s dungan if cantonese why not those as well it s not like we d be overwhelming the reader kwami talk 19 28 19 april 2010 utc reply well it s clear there s no consensus here and as i m not too concerned about it and am not a linguist so am not qualified to say what s ausbau or not i m happy for someone else to make the call on this johnblackburne words deeds 20 30 19 april 2010 utc reply it s a hard call to make and it s not a matter of linguistics it s politics and sociology kwami talk 21 14 19 april 2010 utc reply who should make the call then i d prefer to list cantonese as it was before btw to address your comment above the case for listing other dialects as ausbausprachen is much less clear while taiwanese may be a prestige dialect of minnan socially speaking it does not have the wide institutional recognition that cantonese has dungan even less so umofomia talk 08 12 21 april 2010 utc reply cantonese isn t official either even in hk it s only a de facto co standard and there s a strong push for taiwanese to be made official so it seems rather unfair to include cantonese but not taiwanese and i ve added both kwami talk 07 23 24 april 2010 utc reply i m not saying cantonese is official it doesn t have to be official to be an ausbausprache i m saying that it has the social and institutional recognition and yes i ve already mentioned it s de facto that make the case for it to be an ausbausprache the case for taiwanese is not as strong but i have no strong opposition to listing it either umofomia talk 23 47 25 april 2010 utc reply bopomofo edit latest comment 15 years ago 1 comment 1 person in discussion moved back to official the bopomofo article is incorrect and zhuyin fuhao is still officially used to teach mandarin in taiwan see http english moe gov tw ct asp xitem 11752 ctnode 424 mp 1 roadrunner talk 06 04 14 january 2011 utc reply pinghua and tuhua edit latest comment 3 months ago 2 comments 2 people in discussion i have reverted the addition of nodes tuhua and pinghua and tuhua as neither is a recognized group the zhwiki article zh 土话 is essentially a dictionary entry for tuhua explaining that the term is used for any rural variety of uncertain affinity the second edition of the language atlas of china has a map b1 22 entitled pinghua and tuhua but the notes to that map make no claim that they constitute a group indeed the author is doubtful about the unity of pinghua describing its use in the first edition as provisional this map covers several varieties around the hunan guangdong guangxi border area left out of the widely accepted groups the notes survey 20 years of work on these varieties some of which links some of them to yue hakka gan or xiang the author explicitly declines to draw any conclusions about grouping kanguole 20 44 14 november 2024 utc reply you might want to consult zh 平话和土话 in chinese the term tuhua especially when paired with pinghua refers specifically to the varieties in southern hunan and northern guangdong frank has demo c racy depriva t ion 08 00 26 june 2026 utc reply template size edit latest comment 1 year ago 3 comments 2 people in discussion as is the chinese language template occupies one and a half screens even on 1920 by 1200 monitors while the major groups can t be split further i believe it s better for the template to be split in at least two my current idea is to retain the major groups standard forms and history sections while changing the title to chinese language and varieties phonology grammar idioms literary forms scripts and input constitute chinese grammar and written forms though it can be split further if needed furthermore the major groups section might need to be divided into its constituent parts kanguole thoughts since you re the most recent person on this talk page democracydeprivationdisorder talk 14 13 13 january 2025 utc reply the major groups section takes up two thirds of the space and also wants the map taking up horizontal space maybe it should be a separate navbox and just summarized here though there might be arguments about what to call it kanguole 17 27 14 january 2025 utc reply kanguole given that major groups standard forms and history are themselves on the chinese language s varieties maybe we can use this template and turn it into chinese languages then set up a new template called spoken and written chinese to accommodate the rest democracydeprivationdisorder talk 17 50 14 january 2025 utc reply repetition edit latest comment 10 months ago 7 comments 2 people in discussion i have again reverted the addition of a historical evolution subsection which repeats links that are already present in the navbox mostly in the immediately following history subsection in addition it is not appropriate to link to zh 原始汉语 that article is a content fork of zh 上古汉语 it is also about reconstructing using the shijing and qieyun but focussed on the reconstruction of chang chang 1976 which doesn t have a following in the field it is true that karlgren wrote of proto chinoise a stage he believed was characterized by inflection but that was a century ago and no one has followed him on that kanguole 19 12 7 november 2025 utc reply hi many thanks so you believe that proto sino tibetan jumped straight to old chinese orientalzenodotus talk 13 45 9 november 2025 utc reply there is no significant coverage of an intermediate stage because there is no evidence to build it on kanguole 13 57 9 november 2025 utc reply that is quite surprising to me because proto sino tibitan ...