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h kindness with respect with the assumption of good faith and with forgiveness for mistakes made we re on the same side because we re here for the same reason free knowledge for everyone in their own language let s not forget that jimbo wales talk 15 14 18 september 2026 utc reply hello jimbo thanks for confirming in the open about what we ve heard from staff the foundation changed its strategy to one of neutrality during the vote after a period of campaigning expressing opinions against the union before the rapid vote and a more inclusive bargaining unit at least for the very narrow us standards is also really good news these were welcome changes as staff did not feel safe in the preceding period this update does not answer the pressing questions that the community has been asking some of which you already indicated you would get clarity on if not littler where did the anti union talking points come from is there a second law firm or consultancy involved in any part of this process has the foundation started looking for an alternative law firms that pose less reputational risk risk to donor income how much donor money have we lost roughly due to the choice of littler and the initial anti union strategy is it the plan for littler to help in the negotiations will the foundation continue this very welcome strategy of neutrality in other regions in solidarity femke talk 16 22 18 september 2026 utc reply 1 anyone who doesn t see this as an issue with pros and cons hasn t really thought it through in my view i ll throw the question back at you what would you personally consider to be unreasonable demands from the union in the forthcoming contract negotations if literally anything that the foundation negotiates for is automatically wrong then i m afraid that s not a serious position there many stakeholders here and an important one is the us staff of the wikimedia foundation an important one but we should demand balance and concern for the entire movement 2 i don t know 3 there s no way to even approach this question i would say that it is not material in the grand scheme of things time will tell but if i had to guess given my long experience here there will be no impact at all in the long or short run the biggest issue surrounding donations is the decline in traffic due to the changing nature of search everything else is a footnote 4 i don t know but the core point is that littler does not dictate foundation policy look it d be pretty impossible to find a big law firm with sufficient global experience that hasn t taken a side that we don t agree with an analogy that might be helpful criminal defense lawyers defend murderers routinely a mature and thoughtful approach to thinking about law firms would say that we should have high quality legal representation with relevant expertise law firms don t tell us what to do they advise us on law 5 as far as i know yes jimbo wales talk 21 27 18 september 2026 utc reply the question being thrown back in 1 doesn t really connect with the question of 1 unions make unreasonable demands all the time but that has nothing to do with official anti union talking points in an ununionised workspace cmd talk 23 08 18 september 2026 utc reply i think it connects in the sense that it wouldn t require outside consultants for management to take an early view that this would not be a good move we can disagree with that early view without assuming anything about there being anyone at a law firm driving talking points jimbo wales talk 18 47 19 september 2026 utc reply would you be able to confirm if there is another law firm involved it is possible that these anti union talking points came from inside the leadership team i hope not as i consider this aversion to unions anti democratic and not in line with what i expect of our leaders neutrally tallying pros and cons is not what was done initially the communication only contained arguments against unions i m not sure how it relates to my question but of course there are things i do not want the union to do such as arguing against hiring outside of the us in a period where we can expect a decline in income hiring in pleas cheaper places like france is essential fortunately wwu is global so i m not worried could you ask one strategy that the fundraising team is using to compensate for falling numbers is to get more recurring donors which requires us to have a positive brand an imperfect proxy for money lost is the number of recurring donors who stopped donating and indicated why it will be a lower bound on the income lost but an important one as the foundation needs to decide on which firm it wants to work with in the future could you find out the analogy doesn t work defence lawyers don t help their clients in advance to plan their unethical behaviour littler sells products to enable clients to engage in immoral behaviour a more apt analogy if a law firm where to sell restraining order avoidance products and teach you how to be close to your loved ones read stalk them without too much legal risk that would be creepy you would not want to have anything to do with them even if you just want legit divorce advice the same is true here avoid doing business with morally bankrupt companies boycott them don t cross subsidise their behaviour that s great to hear can you get a confirmation in solidarity femke talk 11 33 19 september 2026 utc reply the issue or one issue is that jimmy wholeheartedly agrees with the it wouldn t have been democratic otherwise reasoning so it doesn t really make much sense to ask where it came from if it was only the corporate statements saying this but jimmy wasn t saying it himself then there would be something to discuss here right now jimmy is fully onboard with the idea that voluntary recognition would have been anti democratic he s not saying it because he has to whether we ll convince him on this i don t know i really don t think so but he ll not be able to engage with that question even if he wants to because it s on a completely different basis than his mental image of the situation i would urge jimmy to talk to people involved in labor organising or even with an ai tool or something even claude told me that the it s not democratic to recognise voluntarily stuff was an union busting tactic employed by law firms if this is left wing ai or whatever i leave it up to the reader but even then we just won t see eye to eye on this with him i think jimmy takes the agf stuff seriously to a fault it is very possible to plausibly lie about your motivations and littler mendelson literally gets paid to be able to do this believing them at their word because agf is one of the reasons jimmy is on a completely different mindset than us jimmy is not alone in his opinion regarding nlrb elections i share it it s all well and good to say that only a couple of people at the union will know whether you signed a card and that we pinkie promise that it will never be revealed to your coworkers but i can certainly understand someone not trusting that promise and signing the card rather than facing even the possibility of being outed as being against the union i can also imagine the howls of protest if the employees were asked to trust a similar promise from management with a nlrb election you have actual laws saying that neither management or the union has any way of knowing how you voted full disclosure three decades ago i was the person handing out the cards for the teamster s union at the welding shop i worked at guy macon talk 14 17 19 september 2026 utc reply thank you and yeah i don t think it s worth any of our time trying to talk me out of the idea that major decisions like this should be made with a secret ballot process i ll just add that it wouldn t be democratic otherwise is not something that i ve either said or believe i ve said that i am glad we had a secret ballot election because i think it s better i doubt anyone could talk me out of that but given that it s done and we got a good outcome i don t see the point in trying jimbo wales talk 18 50 19 september 2026 utc reply my point was not that ignoring the two prior votes was undemocratic that point has been discussed to death but that that an anti union belief system is itself at odds with democratic values given that unions are worker s representation it is strange that in some countries at least workers do not necessarily have any say in how their workplace is run unions form part of the civil society that every healthy democracy needs i m curious as to the responses to my follow up questions it would be good if we can eventually go beyond as far as i know given that your previous assumptions have not always born out in solidarity femke talk 21 03 19 september 2026 utc reply in any case thank you femke for asking these questions the more responses we get the clearer the picture will be egezort talk 12 26 19 september 2026 utc reply there definitely were staff who said foundation leadership did not remain neutral in the same way i there were staff who felt pressured to sign the union cards i think in both those instances it made more sense to listen to what was clearly the dominant sentiment foundation leadership did remain neutral the union did not pressure people to sign the union cards i also think the board s track record is a bit mixed on whether democratic votes with a secret ballot election is very in line with our values i could give a few examples in my relatively brief career but i ll just throw out the fact that the board let an mcdc process get to a point where the vote did not matter as an example further neutrality on a movement stakeholder being able to organize is not in line with what i see as movement values let me also repeat publicly to you what i said to maciej when discussing this on the english discord server i think something in the board s process failed to set its new direct report the ceo up for success with this littler decision and the backlash she has now faced from the community because of that decision i would urge this board to figure that out so that the next time there s a new ceo something can be fixed improved to not put a new ceo in the position bernadette now finds herself with a number of people best barkeep49 talk 17 05 18 september 2026 utc reply with respect to hiring littler it would seem to me that that would be the general counsel s office in charge of hiring law firms although i don t know but if it was the gc office probably with input from human resources it would seem almost impossible for the new ceo to say no or at least very improbable for the new ceo to not go along one can say the buck stops with the ceo but they have to work with and take advice from the gc but again for what it is worth i think they should change firms now alanscottwalker talk 17 21 18 september 2026 utc reply if the ceo is unable to say yes or no to the trustees gc then she is not fit to be a ceo give the career diplomat with 14 years as a union member some more credit for her decisions the board and gc certainly failed in their advisory roles to sound the alarms but it does not mean the ceo is absolved of any culpability the only thing she could be absolved of is not knowing wiki norms something all the other actors displayed incessantly short sightedness the burning question to me is what femke highlighted why did wmf choose to have anti union messaging in the first place who encouraged or enabled it in solidarity shushugah talk 18 14 18 september 2026 utc reply i also expect the ceo to be able to say no and don t question bernadette s ability to do it but i don t expect a new ceo to necessarily have had the background information necessary to know what kind of landmine they were setting up that s my point best barkeep49 talk 18 34 18 september 2026 utc reply it s not the ability the new ceo would likely not want to be either a micromanager nor someone who refuses the advice of the gc unless she is also willing to fire the gc as her practically first act in the legal realm she was not hired to be the lawyer alanscottwalker talk 18 44 18 september 2026 utc reply i am very much in agreement with barkeep49 and alanscottwalker in that wow to walk into this cold was hard for bernadette i think both the board and especially me personally are taking a hard look at whether we gave enough support and advice here i feel a heavy weight about all the animosity particularly to the extent that it involves assumptions and accusations of bad faith that i know aren t warranted we ve muddled through to what i hope is a good outcome but the muddling is something that i regret and wish i had done more early on to help avoid jimbo wales talk 21 32 18 september 2026 utc reply jimbo wales i believe that some of your time from this point onward should be to rebuild some bridges that were harmed in this process in case you need volunteer support for this sort of thing i m willing to be involved and i assume many others would be too egezort talk 21 46 18 september 2026 utc reply yeah awesome let s do it here s a random story i was recently in fano italy i did an event at the local library and the italian wikimedians came and did an editathon and then there was a public event in a beautiful old theater and then the next day a bunch of us including my wife and children visited an important archeological site that was recently discovered there it was all so so lovely and for me personally after all the stress of recent months a real renewal sweet lovely wikipedians excitedly meeting and talking about wikipedia and introducing new editors including my daughter to how to edit and then an event and then drinks at a lovely outdoor bar by the library it s what it all means to be a wikipedian that s the good spirit and i love it so so much so yeah let s rebuild bridges let s see what we can do to soften our words to bring people around count me in jimbo wales talk 21 56 18 september 2026 utc reply thanks jimbo imo this is progress and i appreciate you sticking with it and running it down of course this isn t over there is still the cba to negotiate in the us plus ongoing and likely forthcoming unionization efforts in other countries i also think there needs to be some kind of debriefing process where we can examine what went wrong this year and how we prevent it from reoccurring there are still open questions and issues as femke barkeep and shushugah point out above one question for you i very much agree that we ought to engage in disagreements with kindness with respect with the assumption of good faith and with forgiveness for mistakes made how do i engage with someone in good faith if they won t talk to me you and arguably victoria are the only trustees officers that are actually communicating with the volunteer community bernadette and the other trustees have said nothing the occasional press releases don t count how do we engage with the ceo and trustees if they refuse to answer t...