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s and i m not sure why that is the case mr ernie talk 10 17 5 november 2020 utc reply statement by username edit result concerning specifico edit this section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators comments by others will be moved to the sections above responding to the consensus required portion of this report i did a little analysis of my own and i find a technical violation of the rule 26 september 2019 the sentence beginning the obama administration had debated charging assange under the espionage act is first added to the article it sits there for a year enough to be considered longstanding 21 october 2020 the sentence is wp boldly removed by jack upland no edit summary 27 october 2020 the sentence is restored by darouet edit summary restoring this one sentence as the obama administration s view according to the nyt is relevant to this section 27 october 2020 specifico reverts without having obtained consensus for the re removal edit summary synth insinuation assange is on par with journalists a couple other points this is almost exactly the same thing that happened last month at wikipedia arbitration requests enforcement archive272 specifico same article same user same sanction we didn t find a consensus there to enforce the sanction then i personally oppose enforcing this sanction because i think it s a stupid rule the above scenario illustrates some of its problems i shouldn t have to use wikiblame to figure out if the rule was broken and this is specifico s first edit to the article in nearly a month do we want to be blocking users for making 1 revert per month the admin who placed the sanction is now involved in the article and it s debatable whether he should be able to modify or remove it even if he wanted to bottom line i think we should either enforce the rule or get rid of it my vote is to get rid of it awilley talk 02 59 29 october 2020 utc reply i ve looked at awilley s analysis above and can t fault it i really dislike this rule and think it causes more problems than it s worth we need to get rid of it from this and all articles i also don t see how enforcing it here will improve wikipedia doug weller talk 12 32 29 october 2020 utc reply i dislike brd as much as a restriction coffee added consensus required to a number of articles but he also kept track of the consensus brd meh outside of ae it s just an essay that people sometimes throw around as though it s policy and many times not practical like bish i hate it doug weller talk 10 19 30 october 2020 utc reply i ve never enforced brd and i never would i hate it let s get rid of it can we do that here bishonen tålk 15 04 29 october 2020 utc reply ugh please let s not muddle the terminology here bishonen consensus required and brd are apples and oranges consensus required is the ds rule we re discussing here that was added to tons of american politics articles in 2016 brd is short for wp bold revert discuss cycle the behavioral guideline that s been around since 2005 and enforced brd or 24 hr brd is the ds rule i came up with in 2018 to replace the consensus required rule because at that time the community was opposed to removing the rule entirely the sanction at talk falun gong mentioned by user guerillero is something new i ve never seen before but is most similar in practice to the consensus required rule at this point it would take a consensus of admins to retire any or all of those rules everywhere and i think it would need to be done in a dedicated thread that s not mixed up with an individual editor awilley talk 17 14 29 october 2020 utc reply minor point brd is an explanatory supplement not a guideline and it s first sentence which says that brd is an optional method of reaching consensus emphasis added should make it clear that this is never something to be enforced see also brd is best used by experienced wikipedia editors it may require more diplomacy and skill to use successfully than other methods and has more potential for failure using brd in volatile situations is discouraged and brd is not mandatory and brd doesn t work well in all situations it is ideally suited to disputes that involve only a small number of people all of whom are interested in making progress there are many other options and some may be more suitable for other situations if you want to enforce something 1rr or even wikipedia crp might work but brd is not the right approach to every dispute and should never be mandatory whatamidoing talk 20 15 30 october 2020 utc reply it helped control things at falun gong so i am not 100 opposed to brd guerillero parlez moi 15 39 29 october 2020 utc reply user jzg has now clarified on his talk page that he is ok with admins here revising the 1rr that he originally imposed if they think a different kind of restriction is better his 1rr was simply american politics ae this is the 1rr that requires consensus before reverting my impression from the admin comments above is that the proposal on the table is to abolish consensus required and make this be a brd type of 1rr it appears that both awilley and dougweller are opposed to consensus required not sure what they think about brd though i see that at least bishonen is opposed to brd personally i think that consensus required is not a bright line rule which makes it hard to enforce with brd you can at least check if somebody tried to discuss that is the d in brd the sanction at talk falun gong looks like a hybrid of consensus required and brd you must not make more than one revert per 24 hours to this article all edits to the article need a clear consensus on this talk page for the change if challenged where the clear consensus challenged phrase is made into a wikilink to wp brd the exact wording of brd seems to say that you must not revert again if you have not reached consensus so perhaps the two rules are in act requiring the same behavior the weak link in both is that the admin needs to figure out whether consensus has been reached this could be a matter of opinion and might be as hard as closing an rfc edjohnston talk 20 48 29 october 2020 utc reply you don t need to ask me twice i ve removed the consensus required sanction and left just normal wp 1rr i d rather not add the 24 hr brd sanction at this time that rule is currently confined to the american politics topic area and i d rather keep it that way unless the rule gains widespread acceptance which it has not awilley talk 22 22 29 october 2020 utc reply my view remains that enforced brd is in most cases inferior to consensus required i disagree with awilley for having supplanted cr with enforced brd on multiple pages in the past and i am opposed to them continuing to do so in the future calling cr stupid does not make it so nor does it make enforced brd smarter just because there apparently is neither the will to observe nor is there the will to enforce cr on that particular page does not mean enforced brd would work better for it so while awilley s framing above reinforces enforced brd s would be superiority to cr i myself still am just not seeing it how that is even remotely so anyway if ae is at the point right now where these beyond 1rr enhancements in general are proving too nuanced to enforce then abolish both and stick to 1rr only that s fine cr is not hopelessly complex often when a dispute proves intractable at some point wp onus may be needed to be enforced by an admin for the remainder of the consensus building process that happens all the time that is what cr is a strict version of onus that does so as page level restriction but again the argument that enforced brd is the solution to its shortcomings that it is better than cr in resolving disputes i have never seen evidence even of the loosest variety to support that assertion el_c 01 02 30 october 2020 utc reply what el c said consensus required is in essence a way that onus can be enforced el c has accurately expressed my views on ebrd as well so i don t have much more to add no comment on removing cr but oppose supplanting it with ebrd tonyballioni talk 04 26 30 october 2020 utc reply agree with the above enforced brd is just the consensus required sanction with the actual requirement to resolve the dispute removed and replaced with a procedural 24 hour hold on reverting it s essentially a more lenient version of both 1rr and consensus required and it doesn t work well in practice since it allows for edit warring to continue and i have seen it do so in practice no offense but awilley is hardly the authority on consensus required being a stupid rule when he made up brd enforced and went about trying to systematically replace it with his new rule and then it went to an and no one supported him that was a massive gaffe on his part i don t see anything wrong with consensus required in general it just says you can t edit war over a disputed edit until a consensus has decided the dispute that is in line with the basic principle from which this whole project is governed now i m not saying we should ignore context and blindly enforce sanctions either so what s the context specifico seems to have removed longstanding content per wp synth per levivich s comment it wasn t synth but a rather straightforward paraphrase of a single source so there s no real justification for specifico having violated the sanction here and no convincing reason not to enforce the sanction i m fine with a short block or even a warning but i m a bit baffled that some admins are leaning towards just turning a blind eye here as if this is just some gotcha technicality that we should overlook and even if specifico was like my bad it was a mistake i ll be more careful fine but specifico is apparently at the point of not even taking ae enough seriously to comment at all at this point why are we giving special treatment swarm sting 05 08 30 october 2020 utc reply swarm the fact that this is specifico 3 is a sign that they are either engaged in misconduct or being hounded guerillero parlez moi 20 19 30 october 2020 utc reply uh yeah i literally explained in my comment that they engaged in misconduct here they literally violated the editing restriction people have repeatedly explained this swarm sting 00 23 1 november 2020 utc reply setting aside the discussion of the sanction and focusing on the user i wouldn t be opposed to something like a short couple of weeks topic ban as people have pointed out it s not really fair to have one person repeatedly flaunting a rule that everybody else is following awilley talk 03 54 1 november 2020 utc reply thank you for saying so i think that s very reasonable any objections not involving meta commentary about the editing restriction itself swarm sting 01 40 2 november 2020 utc reply with specifico s comment we now see that your rush to remove the sanction was not only arguably abusive as an involved admin but it has backfired spectacularly with specifico now hiding behind it as deprecated as fundamentally flawed and unworkable rather than acknowledging that they committed a straightforward violation of an editing restriction which had no consensus to be removed and which you removed because you thought it was stupid and they are now misrepresenting the removal as evidence that they cannot be sanctioned your removal was apparently based on the fact that you don t like the restriction and simply removed it because you could it s uncontentious that specifico committed a clear cut violation here and was on the path to receiving a sanction unless they responded in good faith and now we have them arrogantly responding in bad faith and at this point it is actually genuinely unclear whether they can be technically sanctioned when the sanctions have been lifted in the middle of the ae discussion whether your removal itself can be overturned per wp wheel and whether there s any recourse for specifico s violation and your extremely dubious lifting of a sanction that you were biased against this has already gone to the community and no one supported your approach of procedurally removing consensus required because you personally don t like it now you ve done it again and it s apparently given a free pass to a user who committed a violation and hamstrung the ae process even though even here there s certainly no consensus for you to have lifted the editing restriction you did it because you personally oppose that restriction in general that is patently inappropriate i m not sure where we go from here but next time you arbitrarily lift a consensus required editing restriction without a consensus because you have deemed it to be stupid and in doing so give a free pass to a user who has violated a clear cut rule i will be bringing it to arbcom as for specifico i m not sure where we go from here they deserve to be sanctioned they re now claiming we can t sanction them since someone has lifted the restriction it s a proper mess however i can certainly say that based on their arrogant comment here i will have no inclination to cut them a break if i see another violation from them shame on everyone involved here for botching this report so completely and utterly i apologize to darouet swarm sting 03 15 2 november 2020 utc reply swarm it doesn t have to be this complicated i apologize for removing the sanction before this thread had been closed that was a miscalculation on my part i can clean up my own mess if you don t object i will close this thread with a 2 week topic ban that s something we both found reasonable and no admin has objected to that in the 2 days since you first said a sanction was needed here as for wp wheel it s fine with me if you or any other admin restores the cr sanction if you re willing to take ownership over that if you do it might be a good idea to avoid using the american politics template again since assange is neither an american nor a politician awilley talk 20 36 2 november 2020 utc reply if specifico s removal of this content was so disruptive as to warrant consideration of a sanction why has it still not been restored to the page brad v 02 55 2 november 2020 utc reply levivich the point of this wasn t to say it should be restored it was to suggest that if an edit has consensus it can t be at the same time considered disruptive enough to warrant sanctions consensus required is a reasonably effective article restriction but it doesn t work if we enforce it blindly brad v 03 07 2 november 2020 utc reply i have already addressed this point we re not talking about blind enforcement it has been specifically articulated that specifico didn t have a legitimate reason for their edit warring their synth argument was straightforwardly not convincing we re not talking about blind enforcement we re talking about a clear violation with no mitigating factors when examining the rationale and context are you seriously an arb because you re ignoring things that people have already written and writing things that people have already refuted what are you ...