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of scripture 4 therefore there are people who probably hold to egalitarian gender roles of course evangelical egalitarians would agree with this argument because the determinative issue is whether one holds to biblical authority not egalitarian gender roles filed under complementarianism leave a comment william webb s appendix b the traditional interpretation of 1 timothy 2 14 posted on june 9 2012 by adam complementarians typically appeal to church history to buttress their view that christians have always believed that women were equal in being but different in role this is suspicious considering what people men have taught about women particularly from 1 timothy 2 14 william webb s book slaves women and homosexuals has the following quotes in an appendix demonstrating that in reality the christians believed women were inferior in their being and therefore inferior in their role didymus the blind 313 398 being strong i e stronger that the woman who was weak under satan s deception t he man is more able than the woman to fight and defend himself against the trickery of the adversary he would not and will not let himself be drawn into seduction like eve john chrysostom 347 407 for thus they will show submission by their silence for the sex is naturally somewhat talkative and for this reason he restrains them on all sides the woman eve taught once and ruined all on this account therefore he saith let her not teach but what is it to other women that she suffered this it certainly concerns them for the sex is weak and fickle and he is speaking of the sex collectively augustine 354 430 and satan first tried his deceit upon the woman making his assault up on the weaker part of that human alliance that he might gradually gain the whole and not supposing that the man would readily give ear to him or be deceived but that he might yield to the error of the woman for not without significance did the apostle say and adam was not deceived but the woman being deceived was in the transgression epiphanius 365 403 the female sex is easily mistaken fallible and poor in intelligence it is apparent that through women the devil has vomited this forth as previously the teaching associated with quintilla maximilla and priscilla was utterly ridiculous so also is this one come now servants of god let us put on a manly mind and disperse the mania of these women the whole of this deception is female the disease comes from eve who was long ago deceived humbert de romans 1194 1277 in connection with the preacher s person we should notice that he must be of male sex i do not permit a woman to teach 1 tim 2 12 there are four reasons for this first lack of understanding because a man is more likely to have understanding than a woman bonaventure 1217 1274 the devil envious of man assumed the form of a serpent and addressed the woman by this temptation sought to bring about the fall of the weaker woman so that through her he might then overthrow the stronger sex but it was by the devil s own cunning that he approached the woman first it is easier to overcome the weak a clever enemy always attacks a stronghold at its weakest point thomas aquinas 1225 1274 the human group would have lacked the benefit of order had some of its members not been governed by others who were wiser such is the subjection in which woman is by nature subordinate to man because the power of rational discernment is by nature stronger in man st paul says that women should keep silence in the churches and i permit no woman to teach or have authority over men 1 tim 2 12 but this especially touches on the grace of speech accordingly that grace speaking publicly to the whole church does not pertain to women because generally speaking women are not perfected in wisdom so as to be fit to be entrusted with public teaching erasmus 1466 1536 eve was deceived first when believing the serpent and beguiled by the enticement of the fruit she disregarded god s command the man could not have been taken in either by the serpent s promises or by the allure of the fruit only love for his wife drew him into a ruinous compliance martin luther 1514 1572 paul thus proved that by divine and human right adam is the master of the woman that is it was not adam who went astray therefore there was greater wisdom in adam that in the woman where this occurs there is the greater authority he adam persevered in his dominion over the serpent which did not attack him but rather attacked the weaker vessel just as he does today john knox 1514 1572 and first where i affirm the empire of a woman to be a thing repugnant to nature i mean not only that god by the order of his creation has spoiled woman of authority and dominion but also that man has seen proved and pronounced just causes why it should be for who can deny but it is repugnant to nature that the blind shall be appointed to lead and conduct such as do see that the weak the sick and impotent persons shall nourish and keep the whole and strong and finally that the foolish mad and frenetic shall govern the discreet and give counsel to such as be sober of mind and such be all women compared unto man in bearing of authority i except such as god by singular privilege and for certain causes known only to himself has exempted from the common rank of women and do speak of women as nature and experience do this day declare them nature i say does paint them forth to be weak frail impatient feeble and foolish and experience has declared them to be inconstant variable cruel lacking the spirit of counsel and regiment and these notable faults have men in all ages espied in that kind for the which not only they have removed women from rule and authority but also some have thought that men subject to the counsel or empire of their wives were unworthy of public office filed under being and role leave a comment f f bruce on galatians 3 28 posted on january 31 2012 by adam i ve always appreciated f f bruce s comments on galatians 3 28 w a meeks thinks that paul is here quoting a baptismal reunification formula which envisaged the restoration of a pristine androgynous image but paul himself is not concerned with any such fantasy he is concerned with practical church life in which men and women like jews and gentiles slaves and free persons are here and now fellow members it is not their distinctiveness but their inequality of religious role that is abolished in christ jesus whereas paul s ban on discrimination on racial or social grounds has been fairly widely accepted au pied de la lettre there has been a tendency to restrict the degree to which there is male and female thus it has been argued that these words relate only to the common access of men and women to baptism with its introduction to their new existence in christ true paul may have had in mind that circumcision involved a form of discrimination between men and women which was removed when circumcision was demoted from its position as religious law whereas baptism was open to both sexes indiscriminately but the denial of discrimination which is sacramentally affirmed in baptism holds good for the new existence in christ in its entirety no more restriction is implied in paul s equalizing of the status of male and female in christ than in his equalizing of the status of jew and gentile or of slave and free person if in ordinary life existence in christ is manifest openly in church fellowship then if a gentile may exercise spiritual leadership in church as freely as a jew or a slave as freely as a citizen why not a woman as freely as a man in other spheres in deed the distinction which ceased to be relevant in the church fellowship might continue to be observed in roman law the distinction between slave and free person remained in the family the cooperation of husband and wife or father and mother depend as it still does on the distinction between them but superiority and inferiority of status or esteem could have no place ithe society whose founder laid it down that among his followers whoever would be first must be slave of all mk 10 44 how paul allowed the principle of no male and female to operate in practice may be seen for example in his appreciation of the philippian women who labored side by side with him in the gospel phil 4 3 or his recognition of the right of women to pray and prophesy in church the veil being the symbol of their authority paul states the basic principle here if restrictions on it are found elsewhere in the pauline corpus as in 1 cor 14 34f or 1 tim 2 11f they are to be understood in relation to gal 3 28 and not vice versa attempts to find canon law in paul or base canon law on paul should be forestalled by a consideration of paul s probable reaction to the very idea of canon law nigtc 1982 189 90 filed under verses 1 comment phil gons on the mccall yandell argument and my response posted on october 28 2011 by adam phil gons has a good post detailing a response to the mccall yandell argument against necessary role subordination in the trinity here s their argument if the son is eternally subordinate to the father in all possible worlds then the son is necessarily subordinate to the father if the son is necessarily subordinate to the father then the son is essentially subordinate to the father thus the son as essentially subordinate to the father is of a different essence or nature than the father which entails a denial of homoousion my first line of response is to show that this argument can be equally applied to any eternal difference between the father and the son let s take the son s property of sonship and apply their own argument to it if the son is eternally the son and the father is eternally not the son in all possible worlds then the son is necessarily the son and the father is necessarily not the son if the son is necessarily the son and the father is necessarily not the son then the son is essentially the son and the father is essentially not the son thus the son as essentially the son and the father as essentially not the son are of a different essence or nature which entails a denial of homoousion the result of extending the argument this way is that it demonstrates assuming the legitimacy of the argument that there can be no eternal difference of any kind without denying homoousion but yandell himself affirmed in the debate that the son alone has the property of being the son and the father alone the property of being the father and the spirit alone the property of being the spirit yet according to his own argument he must deny homoousion because these eternal differences constitute necessary differences which constitute essential differences yandell and mccall are attempting to affirm three propositions that simply cannot stand together here are the three incompatible propositions the argument is valid there are eternal differences among the three persons of the trinity the father and the son are homoousios if they wish to maintain their claim to rationality they must either deny 1 the legitimacy of the argument 2 that the son alone has the property of being the son etc which amounts to a denial of the christian doctrine of the trinity 3 the doctrine of homoousion or 4 some combination of the three at least one of these has to go all three cannot coexist i thought this was a good argument but after studying some metaphysics years later i left this comment i came across this post just after the debate and i thought your raised a good argument against mccall and yandell even though i was skeptical of it i could not put my finger on what i thought was wrong with it now i am thinking i have an account of what is wrong with it you write my first line of response is to show that this argument can be equally applied to any eternal difference between the father and the son i think there is a good reason to think it is false that this argument can be applied to any necessary difference between the father and the son the property of sonship as explained by your counter argument amounts to this the son is necessarily the son and the father is necessarily not the son the first conjunct the son is necessarily the son is the exemplification of self identity necessarily everything is identical with itself the son has this property as does the father as does every concrete particular yet such a property is what philosophers have recognized as an impure property that is a property that presupposes the notion of a concrete particular to say the son has the property of being identical with the son and the father as having the property of being identical with the father is to assert a trivial truth that elucidates nothing about their constituent ontologies what mccall and yandell are worried about is a pure property one that does not presuppose a concrete particular distinguishing the father and son s constituent nature if the father has the property of being in authority and the son qualitatively lacks this property then neither the father nor the son is identical in their constituent ontologies one might try to wriggle out of this problem by claiming that the being in authority property is not a constituent of the divine nature rather it is only a constituent of the father s personal nature but there is good reason to doubt this as such a property seems to be a necessary condition of the divine attribute of sovereignty one is sovereign if and only if one has the ability to control all things and the right to govern all things it is very plausible to envisage the right to govern all things as exemplifying the property of being in authority something the father has that the son lacks this distinction helps explain how there is compatibility between the three propositions first the argument is valid there is no logical fallacy or false inference occurring between the premises second the property of self identity while not sufficient to elucidate the constituent nature of a concrete particular is sufficient for naming a difference between at least two concrete particulars that is the father and son third pure properties those that make up the constituent nature of a concrete particular without depending on a concrete particular make up identical sets of properties that are both necessary and sufficient for the divine nature of the father and son thus both are homoousios what do you think read the whole thing to see gons s response filed under trinity leave a comment gender bias in the nlt posted on october 21 2011 by adam from here most english translations of 1 timothy 3 1 6 give the impression that these qualifications only refer to and apply to men yet in reality this passage is remarkable gender neutral in the greek the nlt gives the most biased english translation of this passage this is a trustworthy saying if someone aspires to be an elder he desires an honorable position so an elder must be a man whose life is above reproach 1 timothy 3 1 2a nlt 2007 my emphasis the nlt translators h...