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gic of equality the difference between a and not a archives march 2014 august 2012 june 2012 january 2012 october 2011 september 2011 july 2011 october 2009 august 2009 march 2009 february 2009 september 2008 august 2008 june 2008 may 2008 april 2008 march 2008 february 2008 meta create account log in entries feed comments feed wordpress com phil gons on the mccall yandell argument and my response posted on october 28 2011 by adam phil gons has a good post detailing a response to the mccall yandell argument against necessary role subordination in the trinity here s their argument if the son is eternally subordinate to the father in all possible worlds then the son is necessarily subordinate to the father if the son is necessarily subordinate to the father then the son is essentially subordinate to the father thus the son as essentially subordinate to the father is of a different essence or nature than the father which entails a denial of homoousion my first line of response is to show that this argument can be equally applied to any eternal difference between the father and the son let s take the son s property of sonship and apply their own argument to it if the son is eternally the son and the father is eternally not the son in all possible worlds then the son is necessarily the son and the father is necessarily not the son if the son is necessarily the son and the father is necessarily not the son then the son is essentially the son and the father is essentially not the son thus the son as essentially the son and the father as essentially not the son are of a different essence or nature which entails a denial of homoousion the result of extending the argument this way is that it demonstrates assuming the legitimacy of the argument that there can be no eternal difference of any kind without denying homoousion but yandell himself affirmed in the debate that the son alone has the property of being the son and the father alone the property of being the father and the spirit alone the property of being the spirit yet according to his own argument he must deny homoousion because these eternal differences constitute necessary differences which constitute essential differences yandell and mccall are attempting to affirm three propositions that simply cannot stand together here are the three incompatible propositions the argument is valid there are eternal differences among the three persons of the trinity the father and the son are homoousios if they wish to maintain their claim to rationality they must either deny 1 the legitimacy of the argument 2 that the son alone has the property of being the son etc which amounts to a denial of the christian doctrine of the trinity 3 the doctrine of homoousion or 4 some combination of the three at least one of these has to go all three cannot coexist i thought this was a good argument but after studying some metaphysics years later i left this comment i came across this post just after the debate and i thought your raised a good argument against mccall and yandell even though i was skeptical of it i could not put my finger on what i thought was wrong with it now i am thinking i have an account of what is wrong with it you write my first line of response is to show that this argument can be equally applied to any eternal difference between the father and the son i think there is a good reason to think it is false that this argument can be applied to any necessary difference between the father and the son the property of sonship as explained by your counter argument amounts to this the son is necessarily the son and the father is necessarily not the son the first conjunct the son is necessarily the son is the exemplification of self identity necessarily everything is identical with itself the son has this property as does the father as does every concrete particular yet such a property is what philosophers have recognized as an impure property that is a property that presupposes the notion of a concrete particular to say the son has the property of being identical with the son and the father as having the property of being identical with the father is to assert a trivial truth that elucidates nothing about their constituent ontologies what mccall and yandell are worried about is a pure property one that does not presuppose a concrete particular distinguishing the father and son s constituent nature if the father has the property of being in authority and the son qualitatively lacks this property then neither the father nor the son is identical in their constituent ontologies one might try to wriggle out of this problem by claiming that the being in authority property is not a constituent of the divine nature rather it is only a constituent of the father s personal nature but there is good reason to doubt this as such a property seems to be a necessary condition of the divine attribute of sovereignty one is sovereign if and only if one has the ability to control all things and the right to govern all things it is very plausible to envisage the right to govern all things as exemplifying the property of being in authority something the father has that the son lacks this distinction helps explain how there is compatibility between the three propositions first the argument is valid there is no logical fallacy or false inference occurring between the premises second the property of self identity while not sufficient to elucidate the constituent nature of a concrete particular is sufficient for naming a difference between at least two concrete particulars that is the father and son third pure properties those that make up the constituent nature of a concrete particular without depending on a concrete particular make up identical sets of properties that are both necessary and sufficient for the divine nature of the father and son thus both are homoousios what do you think read the whole thing to see gons s response filed under trinity leave a comment against the new subordinationists posted on july 8 2011 by adam against the new subordinationists and we see moreover how functional subordinationists read ghosts of subordination into every little thing the father gave the son therefore the son is subordinate the father sent the son therefore the son is subordinate the world was made through the son therefore the son is subordinate but we have seen these claims before we battled them in the eunomians sixteen hundred years ago they were no more plausible then the father sent the son yes but to send tells us nothing of authority a child may say to his parent go and see how well i have cleaned my room the parent goes and behold in going the parent is sent but this tells us nothing of who has the greater authority my friend and i are in perfect agreement that she should help you on some matter i say to you i am sending you my friend to help you have i arrogated an authority over my friend hardly for my purpose does not rule the agreement was i lying certainly not for i am sending my friend this supposed proof is dubious in our own case shall we think it conclusive in god s it is even less likely to be legitimate there for if i and my friend are in perfect agreement it can be nothing in comparison to the agreement of the father and the son and the spirit who are so united that the work of the father is through the son and in the spirit so that one and the same action belongs to three persons whether it pertains to creation or salvation what human unity of purpose could possibly compare but in unity of purpose as such there is no subordination if there were subordination there would not be unity but one purpose subordinating another purpose however congenially and so if the father gives the son and this giving is eternally purposed by the thrice holy trinity there is no subordination in being given for there is no subordination of purposes only a perfect unity of purpose that the word be made flesh and come among us a savior a gift of life thus from the mission of the son nothing follows about subordination and likewise from the making of all things through the son nothing follows about subordination indeed the reverse for that all things are made through the son shows clearly that the son is one with the father with a unity that we can scarcely comprehend but so eagerly do the functional subordinationists grasp after straws that they see elaborate subordinations lurking in every difference of preposition read the whole thing filed under trinity leave a comment william lane craig on the generation of the son posted on august 21 2009 by adam at william lane craig s reasonable faith website dr craig answers a complex question about the trinity and prior causation although most of the article is dedicated to explaining the first cause argument for god s existence there are a few interesting quotes about the eternal generation of the son from the father he says theologically it seems to me the doctrine of the generation of the logos from the father cannot despite assurances to the contrary but diminish the status of the son because he becomes an effect contingent upon the father even if this eternal procession takes place necessarily and apart from the father s will the son is less than the father because the father alone exists in himself whereas the son exists through another such derivative being is the same way in which created things exist despite protestations to the contrary nicene orthodoxy does not seem to have completely exorcised the spirit of subordinationism introduced into christology by the greek apologists for these reasons evangelical theologians have tended to treat the doctrine of the eternal generation of the son from the father with benign neglect if we do decide to drop from our doctrine of the trinity the eternal generation and procession of the son and spirit from the father how should we construe the intra trinitarian relations here i find it useful to distinguish between the ontological trinity and the economic trinity the ontological trinity is the trinity as it exists of itself apart from god s relation to the world the economic trinity has reference to the different roles played by the persons of the trinity in relation to the world and especially in the plan of salvation in this economic trinity there is subordination or perhaps better submission of one person to another as the incarnate son does the father s will and the spirit speaks not on his own account but on behalf of the son the economic trinity does not reflect ontological differences between the persons but rather is an expression of god s loving condescension for the sake of our salvation the error of logos christology lay in conflating the economic trinity with the ontological trinity introducing subordination into the nature of the godhead itself so i regard god the father as neither ontologically nor causally prior to god the son and i view augustine and the damascene s views as extra biblical and unfortunate from this it is not clear whether there is an eternal subordination of the son only an eternal generation is denied but many complementarian scholars seem to conflate the two thinking that the son s eternal generation is evidence or perhaps better said the explanation of his eternal subordination still craig does not see the economic trinity as reflecting the ontological trinity which is fundamental to the complementarian scheme filed under trinity 5 comments ivp dictionary on the trinity posted on august 27 2008 by adam from the new dictionary of theology edited by david f wright sinclair b ferguson and j i packer downers grove il intervarsity press 2000 c1988 693 the article is by gerald l bray western trinitarianism was matched by its eastern rival which is associated with the name of origen working quite independently of tertullian origen developed a doctrine of the three hypostaseis of father son and holy spirit which were revealed to share the same divine ousia essence origen arranged these in hierarchical order with the father as god in himself autotheos the son as his exact image and the holy spirit as the image of the son he insisted that this order existed in eternity so that there could be no question of saying that there had been a time when the son had not existed but he also maintained that the son had always been subordinated to the father in the celestial hierarchy this view was later questioned by arius who argued that a subordinate being could not be co eternal with the father since coeternity would imply equality he was countered by athanasius and others who replied that the son was indeed co eternal with the father but not subordinate to him except in the context of the incarnation classical trinitarianism developed in earnest after the council of nicaea 325 there it had been stated that the son was consubstantial homoousios with the father but soon afterwards this key term and the doctrine it embodied were widely rejected in favour of compromise formulae such as homoiousios of a similar substance athanasius almost alone in the east but after 339 with the support of the west battled for an understanding reflected in homoousios as he read it which would make the son numerically identical with the father the son was not to be regarded as a part of god nor was he a second deity he was simply god himself in whom the fullness of divinity dwelt col 2 8 and in whom the father himself was to be seen jn 14 9 eventually his viewpoint was secured but not before controversy had broken out over the holy spirit bold is mine looks like athanasius is to egalitarians as origen is to complementarians in their understandings of the trinity thank god for the work of athanasius and the establishment of his creed and in this trinity none is afore or after other none is greater or less than another but the whole three persons are co eternal together equality within the trinity is hardly a feminist idea it is pure orthodoxy filed under trinity leave a comment trinty and truth posted on may 14 2008 by adam there is an interesting blog called trinity and truth that primarily reviews books on you guessed it the trinity the author comes from an egalitarian perspective on the man woman debate and an eternal subodinationist view of the son father debate here is a section from his review of bruce ware s father son holy spirit relationships roles relevance continue reading filed under trinity tagged bruce ware eternal subordination kevin giles leave a comment calendar august 2026 m t w t f s s 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 mar complementarians cbmw s blog denny burk egalitarians christian for biblical equality god s word to women men and women together rebecca merrill groothuis the cbe scroll good reads equal in being unequal in role biblical equality statement of faith blog at wordpress com wp designer subscribe subscribed equality press sign me up already ha...