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ower rangers he takes this injustice very much to heart but back to today there were two policewomen a mother and daughter who are in the panto every year and who do a comedy double act they got most of the laughs as usual pretending to walk up and down invisible steps forgetting their lines and improvising alternative gags and bringing some girls from the audience up on stage for some banter at the end in the lead role there was a young woman who d been on telly she hadn t much of a stage presence but she got a lot of good lines the funniest character of all was the mischievous one with the funny walk and funny voice who is in the panto every year and always goes around throwing confetti on members of the audience at the end she was predictably hilarious maybe i shouldn t worry though there was after all a panto fairy a young man wearing large wings on his back who came on every so often to sing a few lines and there was a young prince who didn t say much but who was captured by the evil panto villainess and then had to be rescued by the young woman who d been on telly he did get a song to himself about wanting to marry the young woman from the telly and he had a good voice but i did worry a little for my son when another character made a joke about the panto dude being grotesque and ugly and when the dude poked fun at himself by comparing himself to a middle aged overweight man a reality tv star i do feel a bit un christmassy and humourless to be making this point but i wouldn t want my son to grow up thinking that the only strong male stage characters are actually women dressed up as grotesque men with fake hairy chests and stuffed underpants maybe next christmas we ll just stay at home and watch the telly father ted and the british empire or are ireland and britain foreign countries 27 saturday jul 2013 posted by maria scott in responding to texts 2 comments tags british empire foreignness history curriculum ireland recently i posted a link on my facebook account to a blog post about how to commemorate empire in museums the post refers towards its end to the dangers of people not knowing the facts about their country s imperial past i said it brought to mind alex salmond s recent unchallenged comment in the guardian that an independent scotland will not become a foreign country that s simply ridiculous does anyone think ireland is a foreign country i thought this was self evidently an absurd statement of course everyone thinks or should think that ireland is a foreign country from britain s perspective i was surprised though to find that not all my good friends shared my opinion and thought their responses were too interesting not to share here s a summary if you don t have time to read the debate some people believe that the republic of ireland and the united kingdom are not foreign countries some people are quite persuaded that they are at least two republic of ireland born people were very surprised to discover how very little british people learn in school about their shared history at least two very well informed british born people felt that irish people tend to exaggerate the foreignness or difference of britain at least one very well informed british born person believes that they do not all names in the below discussion have been changed at my suggestion though i m not entirely sure why i thought this was necessary possibly to disguise the fact that most of the people involved are married to at least one other participant in the discussion english man of irish parentage living in republic of ireland for over ten years a k a brian salmond is right as a matter of british law ireland is not deemed a foreign country that was enacted in 1949 when ireland became a republic that meant that millions of uk residents ceased to be british subjects overnight and would otherwise have lost residency rights the vote etc rep of ireland born woman living in england for two years a k a me i m not sure that salmond was referring to the special provisions made for irish residents in the uk at that time but even if he was then it s stretching the definition of not foreign a bit brian ireland is definitely a separate country as the roi irish school history curriculum makes very clear but i think there s a lot of confusion in the uk about ireland s status not helped by the fact that i don t think british people usually learn about it in school and the fact that people like graham norton and terry wogan identify themselves as british in eurovision commentaries etc brian we lack a word for it of course ireland is another country but then so are scotland and wales although they are within the uk state and is northern ireland a country ireland isn t a foreign country in the way france is if you see what i mean i refer you to dominic behan s song thank god we re surrounded by water also me after quickly googling the song lyrics two foreign old monarchs in battle did join each wanting his head on the back of a coin i think the right word is foreign i ve talked with friends about my own foreignness not being an issue in the uk which is good but sometimes a bit unsettling too i think most irish people would consider britain foreign in pretty much the same way that they consider france and germany foreign just without the language barriers though yes there are far more cultural affinities most of us watched bbc and itv growing up brian i think irish people feel they have to accentuate differences because the larger island has a tin ear to the differences which do exist most obviously independence itself canadians are like that vis a vis americans me it s not an unawareness of superficial differences that bothers me it s an unawareness in gb of the past that roi irish people are taught in school that s part of our cultural baggage and that britain plays a very large part in i was particularly shocked when a group of historians talked on radio 4 about 1848 revolutions all over europe and said that there wasn t much popular dissatisfaction in ireland at the time mainly because of the relatively benign nature of british rule there was no mention of the fact that the people who were left in ireland were either too hungry or too dead to rebel with much gusto i m not a nationalist by the way just amazed that other people can be even more historically ignorant than i am i m pretty ignorant especially when those people are historians brian and no mention of o connell either i suppose anna has a good story about a fellow undergraduate writing an essay on cromwell which ended except in ireland anna english woman living in the republic of ireland for over ten years i think the irish history school curriculum is a bit of a problem here and the british one irish history is taught in irish schools as a series of rebellions and a famine all of which are blamed on the british there s no context crucially in terms of economic or class distinctions between government and governed plus lots of the complicated bits are glossed over why the enthusiasm for the stuart monarchy despite the plantation meanwhile british history is taught in the uk without reference to the experience of working people and of experiences which would be closer to people of a similar class in ireland and irish history is not taught in uk schools so there s a lot of basic ignorance between the two countries both of their own history and of the history of the island next door the essay in question was actually on the surprisingly bloodless nature of the glorious revolution except in ireland so all those twelfth exhortations to remember 1690 have once more been falling on deaf ears on is ireland foreign in england i think you have to think about who you re talking to 10 of the british population have at least one irish grandparent for them ireland may not be a foreign country at all others are hazy about the difference between the north and the south and aren t quite sure whether either is a separate country there s no excuse for that but it points to an ambiguity that arises from a long and complicated interaction in ireland i get treated differently both to irish people and to other foreigners people fall over themselves to tell me they lived once in england lots of people did and i frequently meet other english people in a way i don t think i would if i was from another country so it s easier to be english than otherwise foreign you ll notice the english don t march on st patrick s day and i think that s because they don t see themselves as a community like the poles or the filipinos and therefore don t form community support groups also people keep telling me i m not really foreign coming from england although they assume i encounter a lot of prejudice which i don t in fact i remember precisely one unpleasant incident in the ten years i ve been in galway but that was someone who was already picking a fight when she heard my accent and thought she d chuck in some racist abuse too i guess the fact that i can be targetted in that way shows that i am some bit foreign but not the same sort of foreign and the same goes for terry wogan and graham norton in britain perhaps foreign isn t the right word because it implies external origin and the irish and british experience of each other is not that of total outsiders how about unheimlich it s normally translated as uncanny but it s made up of a number of ideas that build into a portrait of weirdness because you re not from the same home place deirdre rep of ireland born woman living in northern ireland for some years really enjoying this debate as irish in england or english in ireland we are not foreign but definitely different a bit like the exotique domestique perhaps still so much historical ignorance though history not being obligatory to a level leaving cert is a problem and didn t know that irish history wasn t taught in uk schools me yes i think this is all really interesting i ve been feeling annoyed for quite a long time about the omission of irish history in the uk school curriculum contrasted with the omnipresence of britain in the irish school curriculum mainly after the discovery a long time ago now that robert even as a historian of the british empire who had done a level history and specialised in british history at university knew virtually nothing about ireland before living there father ted and the saw doctors is all he claims another highly educated english person i know laughed uncontrollably when she visited me and heard irish people usually funny apparently being serious on the rte news i only did history to the age of 15 but knew comparatively a huge amount of british history class and economic distinctions the differences between rulers and ruled are a huge theme in the irish curriculum though i suppose we don t learn much about class dynamics and power relations within england scotland wales i know british state education has a lot more ground to cover if it s going to get around all its former territories but the difference is that ireland was for a long time a part of britain not a colony and we re its closest neighbour and loads of british people as you say have irish heritage and people who consider themselves irish and who are educated in ireland do have a lot of negative baggage if they re taught about their country s history at all i think it s not a problem with the r o i irish history curriculum as much as with the facts of irish history and i just think that at least some of these facts and others relating to other countries should be taught to children brought up in britain including my children whether they identify with rulers or ruled because they won t understand the world around them very well without them they ll be absent minded post imperialists as the blog post says i do stand by foreign and all the more foreign because of the continuing differences in our understanding knowledge of the past but brian and anna i d imagine that your understanding and knowledge make you seem very un foreign in the republic of ireland anna but the fact that ireland was a part of britain means that it isn t simply a case of what british people did in ireland but rather a case of what the ruling class did and the irish curriculum encourages that distinction to be forgotten conveniently i think in a country that is still very big on family connections as an established route to power the problem can be written off as the intervention of the british without really examining the part that different groups of native irish played at various times in the country s history i d be very surprised if any actual british history was taught to any depth in irish schools as opposed to the history of britain in ireland which is a pity because a lot of things make more sense if you see the wider picture the paradigm in both countries seems to be the nineteenth century one of teaching history to instil national pride which isn t very helpful to understanding particularly when there s a lot that no reasonable person could be proud of robert english born historian who lived for over ten years in republic of ireland i suppose a lot of this comes down to our differing definitions of what foreign means culturally different complete practical and legal separation probably nowhere is foreign if you use this definition a different and entirely separate nation a different and entirely separate nation state whatever definition we use the relationship between britain or england as most irish people would see it and as alex salmond might see it and ireland is an intensely complex one and much more complex than the connection between england and scotland or england and wales salmond s comparison of the relationship between england and scotland and britain and ireland is misleading for a whole host of reasons and perhaps intentionally so most obviously in modern history the union between scotland and england was a union of equal partners and was seen so by most people in scotland for much of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries perhaps until the time of thatcher this is simply not the case for ireland also it is unclear what constitutional relationship salmond really wants or hopes to achieve between scotland and england but probably a good deal less separate than that which now exists between britain and ireland scotland might just manage to be independent whatever that means but not foreign personally i don t think this is the case for ireland ireland might be connected to britain legally constitutionally for a whole host of reasons but it is a republic and it left the commonwealth if we take the formal interconnectedness of states as our criteria for what is foreign it might just about be possible to say that india is less foreign to britain than ireland it is a republic but there are many continuing connections with britain and it remains in the commonwealth i think what grates for a lot of irish people is the sense that for a mixture ...
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