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description=Interdisciplinary insights into best practices and operational efficiencies of life.;

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l as vaclav smil nickle you would love this guy as for farm equipment like tractors they are on par with back hoes and other heavy machinery in being efficient users of fuel they do not have to go very fast for example like cars do if we are going to be forced to limit our see morefuel use due to declining supplies tractors are the last thing we should be replacing it s the trucking industry and personal transportation that wastes the vast majority of oil as a farmer i love tractors i tilled a half an acre once in a few hours with only two gallons of diesel using a small tractor try doing that by hand with ten friends and see how far you get in a month if we have to use oil using the small amount of it we do to easily produce food is a good use incidentally this was raw un tilled ground one of the best ways to farm is to till once and then never till again no till farming conserves nutrients and increases crop yields jason meggs emanuel thanks for the lively and informative discussion when i suggested debating the figure it wasn t whether that many animals would consume that much arable land i m familiar it was whether that many animals would be necessary james cohea s response hits it for the most part and i wanna know how they did the conversion energy life cycle assessment is a wiggly world at the same time it is counter intuitive that tractors consume so little of the energy reading keith stewart et al s it s a long road to a tomato i was amazed to learn that he puts only 60 gallons of presumably subsidized red dyed ag diesel into his old tractor a year to run a highly productive 100 acre farm that doesn t mean the decline of petroleum won t kill the billions you ve mentioned it very well could not to mention climate change stemming from the expenditure of all that tasty oil gas there s a lot more energy that goes into the current mechanized long distance food system than the tractors speaking of which the biggest job in the world is weeding by hand when you don t use petroleum pesticides the job is much more intense i don t think tractors can help much with this except in careful cases a chicken tractor different people get really quick with a hoe but some of it and harvesting has to be done more carefully with fingers stooping in the hot sun i ve fantasized about creating a bicycle technology solution to reduce strain from stooping it would be a little like a hang glider on wheels ergonomic bike hammock harvester weeder machines in this vision you roll along the rows by hand not having to stoop all the time lying over the plants in a sling you d creep along the rows perhaps tossing the harvest overhead into a collection system it could even have a shade structure again not for mechanized big ag but for improving the daily lives of our more sustainable farmers who struggle against the grain innovations like this pairing low carbon modern technology with small scale farming techniques are where i d put the attention right now not in reinventing the tractor that and increasing the number of local farms within short reach of markets emanuel sferios hey jason yeah it s crazy how much work can get done using heavy equipment and diesel fuel hydrolics are very efficient and tractors never go very fast given that so little fuel is necessary this is the one place where relatively minor government subsidies could keep the industry in place food costs would not have to rise very much with the rising cost of oil at least as far as production transportation is a different story entirely but even then subsidizing food transportation will certainly happen before non essential commodoties from walmart people riot when they don t have food rarely for other things though if the ipods stop rolling we might be in trouble as for weeding taking the most labor hours that s certainly true but be careful extrapolating from vegetable farms to the majority of farms which are grain grains are not nearly as susceptible to pests as are vegetables and grains are by far the most important food crop the three biggies rice wheat and corn supply a whopping two thirds of all food energy consumed in the world even in wealthy segments of the us where we eat more vegetables than anywhere else this includes me vegetables comprise no more than 10 of our energy intake perhaps we notice when we eat vegetables more because they are colorful and we also grow them in our gardens etc but that rice we eat or pasta etc is by far where we get our energy point being here that grains are mass produced using heavy machinery with just a tiny drop of diesel fuel and they don t need that much weeding or pesticides even unless they are in tropical climates but try planting and harvesting acres of grains without a tractor it could with lots and lots of hard human labor but only extremely ideological fanatics would advocate such a thing when there s no terrible problem with way we are doing it today in other words we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater there s plenty of problems with modern agriculture but labor saving tractors are not it soil compaction is not that big of a problem when tractors are used correctly and the advantages are enormous and again very low energy input as for small farms everybody loves them including myself but realistically they could never supplant large scale farms for feeding the population of the world today and i am unwilling to advocate changes that would require massive depopulation that is draconian and unrealistic here s how to think about it go to some of your bay are farmer s market and count how many of the small farmers there are growing wheat probably not many they are selling vegetables for the most part add up all the calories consumed from all the bay area farmer s markets and it isn t even a drop in the bucket compared to the calories consumed from large scale farms growing staple grains even the people who eat regularly from a csa or from the farmer s market only get perhaps 20 of their calories there i know there are hard core folks who may eat only vegetables but this is extremely rare and small farms simply cannot compete with large farms in feeding us it is pie in the sky to advocate that people only eat local food this is possible for a few of us only because so few people even try it if lots of people started trying it it would quickly present itself as utterly impossible local supplies of carbohydrate and protein would disappear overnight and we would once again have to rely on our midwest mega farms this is not to say there s no room for improvement the biggest area for improvement by far is how much grain we grow to feed cows so that people can eat meat they don t need to eat then don t get me started on how the willamette valley in oregon grows so much grass seed certainly we could localize our food supply to a much greater extent than we have today but i am no longer a believer in total re localization as a practical solution this change has come from my study of energy and food when i learned just how much i and other sustainability activists ignored facts that did not fit into our idealistic solutions one of these was ignoring where our calories actually came from how many proud permaculturists do you know who make claims that they grow x percentage of their own food 99 of the time these are gross exxagerations even if you grow all your own vegetables during the summer you are growing only perhaps 20 of your calories i ve belabored this fact enough so here s another one to chew on pun intended historically it takes 2 5 acres to keep five people alive all year round in tropical climates with year round growing seasons using traditional small scale farming techniques 2 5 acres is just shy of a football field i did a blog post on this a while back here s the broken link http sferios blogspot com 2008 12 what permaculture doesnt talk about html that link is gone but archive org has it as well here https web archive org web 20101019192354 sferios blogspot com 2008 12 what permaculture doesnt talk about html and the pdf it references is here http www sferios com docs n2cycle pdf the point here is that it takes a lot more land than people think to grow enough calories to support themselves and don t get me started on john jeavons nonsense did you know he doesn t even eat the food he grows from his plots but rather composts everything back into the soil in order to generate statistics that show how efficient he is in getting large harvests year after year lol ok i ll stop here this could go on and on emanuel james cohea where did you find that info on jeavons i have my doubts about some of his methods and i would like to read about your statements on him 16 times the yield yeah right emanuel sferios jeavons is selling phony idealism to idealists that s all he s doing as far as i am concerned i m idealistic but i don t sell it nor buy it same thing as those books that say make 500 000 a year on one acre or grow all you can eat in your backyard i worked for a year on a csa farm outside portland oregon and the owner of the farm see morewent to one of jeavons week long workshops she was highly critical if you want to experiment with how much food you can grow in a small space she said that s fine but that has nothing to do with actually growing a lot of food james cohea yeah his claims have always been oh how do i say this nicely overly optimistic a more realistic figure would be 30k per year off of 5 acres jeavons has also achieved 8 times the yield at the maximum height of his experiment that s no where near the claim that he thinks 16 times the yield is achievable i have double dug beds before but i see morehonestly don t see the need to do it more than once and only in certain circumstances that s not feasible on a larger scale i do however find some education in what he does as i try to take the best ideas from all systems and jeavons provides a few my question though was not specific enough what i was asking is how did you learn about him putting all of his crop back into compost is that what the oregon farmer learned at the workshop or is there a source on that somewhere that i can read for myself emanuel sferios yes that s what she told me and he does not advertise that in other words he s being intentionally deceptive i don t trust what he says anymore about anything after she told me that as for double digging tilling deeply doing it once is important in clay soils but after that it s not necessary you will only increase leaching and leaching of organic nitrogen from manures fish emulsion etc is just as much a problem as leaching of artificial forms of nitrogen james cohea ok thanks for clearing that up for me i read something online yesterday that someone said you can t double dig in clay soils and i was like what that is exactly when you should do it people have crazy ideas and that s why i like to track down sources of info i hope you don t think i was doubting you i just like to see for myself when possible since so much conflicting and just plain wrong info is out in the world emanuel sferios how dare you doubt me lol seriously doubt everything and everyone especially me i m wrong at least half the time i ve found experience to be the best teacher mostly doubt anyone trying to sell you something including books teacher certification etc jason meggs emanuel i have returned to doubt you again my good friend dig it double diggit dude ette cet rah so this weekend i visited some friends farm out side davis they grow grain vegetables raise chickens i ve helped many times there including grain harvest driving concubine setting up improve irrigation etc smart kids so i asked them about these issues a few replies from their views see more 1 yes you can make biofuels to run farm equipment using 5 10 of your land that s less land than it takes to raise draft animals but then the animals make their own replacements draft animals have additional benefits drawbacks that need to be accounted for if necessar wise you can eat them unlike the exhaust out of the tailpipe for one you can t backhoe with them however but they are better long term for the soil than tractor farming if done right particularly in a closed system self sufficient 2 the calculations to determine billions would starve were questioned again i d still like to see these not apples and oranges to go to a draft animal system would mean quite a reworking of many things building capacity for handlers again etc in this country however evidence was found to very much doubt the claim simply by assessing existing pet horses a note about the topic we were discussing according to this there are about 9 5 million horses in the united states http www horsecouncil org pressreleases 2007_ahcglobalpopresources php there are about 300 million acres of cropland in the us http www ers usda gov publications eib14 eib14d pdf it is sometimes said that a single draft horse can be used to work 25 acres http www greenlivingjournal com page php p 9108 so perhaps one could say that if the existing horse populations was worked somewhat hard it could be adequate to cover the existing cropland being farmed of course these horses aren t all draft horses so additional acreage would have to be set aside to cover the draft horse s greater food requirements and various other critical details need to be considered before this becomes a meaningful analysis but still i think this basic information casts doubt upon the assertion that using draft animals instead of tractors would necessarily require setting aside so much cropland that billions would starve emanuel sferios good stuff jason i have no doubt about your biodiesel stats above i am no proponent of using biofuels to run cars simply too many of them but given that tractors use so little energy to begin with growing biodiesel to run them seems feasible i don t believe it will solve any problems global warming or otherwise but if some farmer wants to do it why not seems like a lot of extra time for no benefit it will certainly cost more in both money and time to grow your own biodiesel and you won t be lessening global warming one bit as for the other issue about how many horses it would take to work 300 million acres of cropland and how much extra cropland it would take to maintain these horses well this seems like a good research project indeed i don t know the answers i was quoting from vaclav smil one of my favorite ecologists does he have a bias maybe but i ve read many of his books and he hasn t shown one on the other hand a website like the one you pointed out here has bias written all over it http www greenlivingjournal com page php p 9108 8230 see more i have learned to be very suspicious of green claims i think the predicament the earth is in is much worse than can be solved by changing light bulbs using canvass shopping bags growing a backyard garden or any other lifestyle changes an individual can make i have...