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in the presence of hafez al assad was in 1980 that was the first event for the millennium festival for the 15 th century hijri it was at the university of damascus theater that was the first speech he delivered before the president he offered sharp criticisms and pointed out the wrong that was happening within the government he gave him strong advice he didn t praise him but the government was smarter than was thought they knew how to pull him the people responsible for pulling him are two mohammed khatib ex minister of awqaaf and alawite general mohammed nasif who was then head of internal security services now he is advisor to the president he is one of the top alawite rulers of the country now what do you mean they pulled him dr bouti was just a professor at the university of damascus he had two lectures weekly mondays and thursdays in a small mosque they succeeded in pulling up to that position and getting him close to the president these two people these two people i don t know mohammed nasif people tried to have a meeting between him and me in the past few years because my name was growing i said i have no interest in meeting him i kept away from the regime myself but mohammed khatib ex minister i know him very well mu az s family no a different family from the south he was minister from 1980 87 he was one of the greatest minds and he is the one who got al bouti into supporting the regime now dr bouti is very emotional he has some qualities which are good sometimes but in politics they are not good he believes anyone who gives him a statement he doesn t believe anyone would lie he trusts people beyond what is reasonable so little by little he established strong ties with people in the regime they convinced him hafez al assad for example convinced him that every morning and evening he was making extra prayers he sheikh bouti gave him some texts to read and every time they would meet hafez al assad would point out to him this is a text you gave me that i m reading every morning and evening and these types of things lured him so dr bouti is different from hassoun dr bouti really believed every word he said this is why when he died i made a statement in his eulogy and i consider him a martyr and the bulk of the rebels disagreed with me and i don t care because this is justice other scholars even ikhwaani scholars kept silent because they don t want to lose popularity with the rebels for me i m considering history we have historical ties with dr bouti i disagreed with him on the theological and legal issue of whether rebelling against the regime is allowed or not allowed i said this on a tv interview but people should not be killed for their opinions he died in a mosque while giving a lecture friday night he s a martyr from that point of view tell me what would be the place of the alawi community in a new syrian state my position and the position of the ulema we do not hold responsible any community or group religious or ethnic for the atrocities committed during the tenure of the ba ath regime or assad rule every individual is responsible for his own actions i think it is very important to emphasize the rights of all minorities especially in the midst of this extremist violence these winds of extremism blowing through the uprising the ulema in general have no problem with the minorities and are probably the safeguard for the unity of the country for the solidarity of the nation for the coexistence between all groups to give a guarantee for these i recently suggested to the danish foreign minister i met him here at the friends of syria conference in marrakesh that someone should organize a conference and invite sunni scholars and religious leaders from the christian minority from the druze minority from the alawite minority and we should agree on a common historical statement for the future of coexistence in syria between all of us and i stress that this hasn t been done until now there was an attempt to do so by a u s based organization a good organization called religions for peace who invited me dr william vendley who is based in new york they organized a conference in istanbul this last monday i was invited but i couldn t travel because of my papers here which i have to have processed in a new syria regardless of whether it becomes a democracy or a system run by ikhwaan or other islamists power is going to be sunni they are the majority and power is going to be in their hands under islamic law what kind of protection can there be for ghulaat sects i don t know if they are seen as ahl al kitaab or not let me first say that i don t have an agenda to islamize the law after the uprising succeeds the law in effect would be applied for all citizens and i don t think the law discriminates now yes but it allows christians and druze to have separate ahwaal shakhsiya so would alawi then be allowed to have their own well the question is about the very existence identity of the alawite minority there is a long discussion about this issue whether the alawites want to be depicted as alawites number one under hafez al assad they wanted to be identified as muslims as ja faris as twelvers as twelvers exactly hafez al assad himself contributed to this he allowed for example sayyid hasan shirazi from lebanon to come and do da wa in order to open mosques and make alawites ja faris and hasan shirazi at the time started establishing ties with the ulema and he came and visited us in our home in 1975 he visited my father and i attended the meeting and the discussion was about alawites being twelvers and what was the attitude of your family and the ulema in syria at that time of course we would welcome this this is much better if they become twelvers but they were not twelvers they were just telling the public that they were but here is the point when you come to the alawites and ask them do you want personal status law they don t have law as a sect they don t have it it s just a set of myths yes but neither do christians christians also don t have law but ahwaal shakhsiyya for christians is necessary because the sphere of family law in islamic societies is governed by shari a but the torah is often included as part of christianity and it has many laws including laws on marriage but it s a vastly complex legal system not followed or considered binding by almost all christian communities christian legal systems that existed previously evolved when church institutions acquired political power and where those institutions no longer have power those systems have generally fallen by the way christianity does not have a self contained legal system like shari a or leviticus but in islamic societies where family law is governed by shari a it creates the necessity to give christians ahwaal shakhsiya because they can t be made to follow laws that are specific to muslims that s right but alawites have an internal conflict with themselves whether they wanted to stay alawite whether they wanted to change to twelvers if they wanted to write their own personal status law i wouldn t oppose it if they do it could distinguish them from muslims you see their identity is not fixed they themselves haven t yet decided on their identity but i question this idea that they haven t decided on their identity they are one of the oldest ghulaat sects in islam they are very old and they ve existed in this area for many centuries it seems that it was only in the 20 th century that their identity began to be in flux largely because of hafez al assad coming to power when they then had to wrestle with legitimacy in terms of legitimacy in the hanafi school we consider them like the people of the book i didn t know that the hanafi school has considered magians as people of the book and similarly in the fatwas of the hanafite scholars such sects as the alawites and druze are considered like the people of the book in a way that is quite simple but which also has restrictions which scholars and in which period i m referring to scholars of the ottoman period i know you re thinking about ibn taymiyya and others i know he wrote against them exactly so scholars after him in the hanafi school in the hanafi school you also find books considering the alawites and the druze and the batiniyya in general as non muslims even a scholar called al mahdi from the hanafi school authored a special book on them it has recently been re published just because of the uprising now for me mixing theology with politics is something very dangerous when we say they are non muslims i was asked this question and some people misunderstood me what i told them was that we teach theology in a class on theology who is a muslim who is not who is a believer who is an unbeliever this discussion takes place in every religion in christianity who is baptized or not baptized who is entitled to salvation and who is not it exists in every religion but to have it in a political or a social law this is different when we say they are non muslims it doesn t mean they have to be killed if we go to the books of politics kitaab al siyaasa or kitaab al jihaad or kitaab al whatever or the books of fiqh you ll see that the muftis agreed on them living agreed on giving them full rights these were ottoman muftis after ibn taymiyya the ottomans didn t exterminate them now they had restrictions on them which they the alawis considered oppression because they considered their religion falsehood they were not allowed to proselytize for it but no non muslim religion is allowed to proselytize exactly the other point is that because of their use of taqiyya they were not allowed into higher positions where they would harm the state but you don t see the phenomenon of hasan shirazi s legitimization of them as a possible strategy for taqiyya i think we have to differentiate between two things there are some educated alawites and i know some of them in syria i was in contact and in discussions with some of them including one of the greatest figures abd al rahman al khayir abd al rahman al khayir is from a scholarly alawite family and they consider the al assad family as a low family the al khayir family are like the sharifs of the alawites and there are several sheikhs from the al khayir family the family and abd al rahman al khayir himself was a friend of my father s and other sheikhs he presented himself as a twelver now i read some of his statements and we believe that he was true in his statements now if others pretend i don t know and i believe it was in the interest of the iranian government to shi atize them now i could be mistaken but isn t it the case that although alawis advertise themselves as muslim they often don t make a point to portray themselves as shi i but actually seem more aligned with sunnis even expressed through the president s marriage to a sunni woman anything about alawites was banned books media newspapers articles radio programs tv shows anything the word alawiyya was banned for 40 years from 1970 they didn t want people to discover the truth that the regime was sectarian anyway in terms of the future of the minorities we have already set principles for all to participate in the civil conferences and all citizens are equal before the law we only reserve one right which i advocate and i think rightly it is unspoken in most western countries the president has to represent the religion of the majority of the people in syria i think there is a need to satisfy people and i think that would be good when kennedy was elected it was a big deal apart from that one item i will rise to defend the minorities rights even before defending the majority s rights because we don t want anyone to be oppressed in the name of islam those with a takfiri ideology will say that alawis are the descendants of apostates and therefore should be killed they are also attacked with accusations of polytheism those who maintain these views would see them as unqualified for dhimmi status when greater numbers of muslims are being exposed to these views and are saying hmm that sounds right how does a scholar respond from a theological point of view we oppose this because people may be unbelievers they may be polytheists but they may not be killed these extremists who pose this challenging ideology it doesn t challenge anything their numbers are very small and everyone opposes them all scholars including ikhwaan here is the major difference between the hanafi school and the opinion of ibn taymiyya whose positions are not adopted by any of the four schools but only by the salafis although alawis are considered kufaar in the hanafi school as a sect we accept their legal presence within the muslim community they are not to be executed as murtadiin apostates because they were not muslims who rejected islam they were born within their sect regarding the future of minorities we need more representatives of their communities taking a stand against the regime now the best guarantee for them is someone from that minority coming out in support of the uprising we remember in homs people carried the cross in the demonstrations of easter friday muslims carried the cross in honor muslims will carry priests and honor them when they see them joining the uprising the same with alawites we haven t seen highly prominent voices expressing regret and joining the uprising that would be the best guarantee however our job as religious leaders is not to highlight the oppression that was carried out by alawites in fact we should prevent people from taking revenge for example saudi sheikhs issued fatwas saying that women and children of the nusayris should be killed i said no around ten months ago or so i was consulted for a fatwa on a military operation someone had planned an operation to kill a regime general who was responsible for torture and such he happened to be an alawite anyway they had put a bomb in his car but when he got into the car he had two sons with him and there was a dispute as to whether they should detonate the bomb or not after abandoning the operation one of them said let s consult the sheikh regarding what would be the right course of action so he called me for a fatwa i said no there is no way that you can kill him and kill his children ok do you have proof about him that he is responsible a criminal an enemy in the war but you can never kill his children i m very strict on this there was another alawite general who was captured in douma this was probably over a year and a half ago early on in the uprising and douma has a mix of salafis and others salafism is strong there they also asked for a fatwa to kill him i said no way there is no way to kill a captive prisoners of war are to be protected they tried to give examples from history or from the qur an suggesting that prisoners of war may be killed i said this is not directed to you it is to the ruler of the country if he decides that a prisoner of war is dangerous he may be killed and this i...