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inning or are you building up the entire post from various different patterns here s a video pattern and here s a i don t know a paragraph pattern with a heading or a background image or whatever it may be p p class wp block paragraph 00 20 12 strong k adam white strong patterns tends to be at number of different levels we might have individual patterns for a particular treatment of headline for example but we also will have a pattern for a hero section we ll have a pattern for a hero section plus the bio below that that we can use to populate a template in the site editor p p class wp block paragraph we build patterns at multiple levels of granularity and we have a leaf to trunk system where we ll make sure that we have renderings whether they re core blocks with either default styling or one or two block variations or individual patterns for things where we need to compose one or two blocks together we ll make sure that we have all of those leaf node pieces of content all of our paragraphs all of our inline images and then we ll build patterns for those higher level groups the full width backgrounds with coloration and a particular headline treatment p p class wp block paragraph we build out those patterns at all of those different levels because it s nice to have the granularity when we re writing our migrators and patterns can reference each other so you can have an accordion pattern which includes two references to an accordion item pattern and you can have all of those little bits of html be discreet php files in your wordpress theme so it makes it very simple to pull up in your editor only the code that you need to edit for a particular unit and know how that s going to be scoped p p class wp block paragraph 00 21 26 strong nathan wrigley strong this is going to sound like such a peculiar question but it genuinely from my point of view this sounds like really interesting and curious work it sounds like there s a lot to get your teeth into you re pushing the boundaries a little bit but also you ve got the scope of wordpress which kind of makes it slightly easier p p class wp block paragraph i m basically just making the comment that i think i would enjoy doing the work that you are doing i don t know if that yeah there really a question there p p class wp block paragraph 00 21 47 strong k adam white strong unfortunately we re doing less and less of that work and claude s doing more and more of it it s been actually very efficient because this is such a core central construct in the wordpress block editor there s a lot of good documentation about it and agentic tools are quite good at helping to build pattern markup p p class wp block paragraph so what we ve been doing is bringing our human eyes onto that doing all of our spot checks making sure that things are kept as simple as possible because i think we re all familiar with how verbose and overly complicated output can be from some tools but then it is also something that i really wish more people were talking about and doing brian coords earlier today in his talk mentioned that pattern driven development really he sees as something that more and more of the wordpress community should be trying out because there are so many things that we used to build custom blocks for that just strictly aren t necessary anymore and we can get so far by composing what we get from the lego kit of wordpress out of the box p p class wp block paragraph 00 22 40 strong nathan wrigley strong yeah i feel like if we went back to 2015 and began gutenberg again i feel going patterns first would actually be a nicer approach certainly a more straightforward approach i know that there s ways to overcome that but i always drop patterns in never blocks and then i m always interacting with the blocks within the pattern but it s patterns first for me all the time just because i like the fact that i m dropping in multiple bits of content that are pre configured and pre made and pre i ve fiddled with the css and made it just how i like it and i just click the button once and there it is and i can just rinse and repeat and it s really straightforward p p class wp block paragraph 00 23 12 strong k adam white strong i would agree and over the past two to five releases of wordpress we ve also had such powerful additional tools added to the pattern toolkit for example partially synced patterns was a major topic that i shared in my talk being able to have a reusable pattern and then make the content editable on a post by post basis makes it very seamless for a non technical editor to go in and not have access out of the box to stylistic controls that would make something drift from the brand s guidelines that they re trying to follow but still be able to customise link targets cta text all of the descriptive and image elements p p class wp block paragraph 00 23 47 strong nathan wrigley strong you are in the weeds of wordpress and i m in the weeds of wordpress all the time but i still feel those tools are widely not misunderstood that s the wrong just there s a void nobody even knows they re there there s just tonnes of tooling inside the block editor that people simply don t know about because the ui and the ux is still a bit funky you ve got to go to various different places and it s easy to go down the wrong route p p class wp block paragraph do you know what i mean there s a bunch of tools inside a wordpress that if you only had a few hours with somebody over your shoulder pointing out okay click on that look at that menu that does this thing it s a shame in a way that s the case but i do feel there s a lot of unexplored potential in every wordpress website that presumably you are leveraging but i guess just because you re in the weeds of it p p class wp block paragraph 00 24 30 strong k adam white strong wherever possible we have the privilege of having a lot of history with the cms human made was founded in 2010 and has always had a strong open source posture we ve contributed to core we ve put plugins out there in the ecosystem that are used by a number of other agencies we ve found the best of what our frenemy competitors use and been able to adopt those into our own processes p p class wp block paragraph and the benefits of understanding all of the different types of block that you can use tremendously outweigh any time sink that it takes to learn them i hope that from my talk people will now know that in 7 0 we added php only blocks where you can have the attributes auto registered so that you get even as a non javascript developer a interface in the editor that someone can open up and go in and change values in the sidebar p p class wp block paragraph i hope that more people learn about partially synced patterns i hope more people learn about all of the different types of block that we have available and find ways to integrate those into their own toolkits because playing with the grain of wordpress and using the block editor for all it s worth are how we untap the most value for our clients p p class wp block paragraph 00 25 34 strong nathan wrigley strong yeah there is certainly an awful lot of power and like i said i just think some of it gets missed p p class wp block paragraph how much after you ve done the migration how much time do you have to spend with the clients i have this impression that the gutenberg editor is pretty straightforward muscle memory for me essentially hours of playing in it i know where all the bits and pieces are p p class wp block paragraph but i would also recognise that if i was to show it to somebody who d never played with wordpress and was coming from in this case sitecore how overwhelming is it and do you take steps to make it less overwhelming by minimising what s available in the interface or just disabling options what do you do in that regard p p class wp block paragraph 00 26 08 strong k adam white strong no matter how much flexibility our clients want it s usually valuable to disable some options i can t remember a site we ve shipped recently for any large website where we left the custom colour picker in for example you want to do a better job of limiting what people can use so that we have confidence that the output no matter how design savvy or not someone is is going to be consistent with the rest of the site p p class wp block paragraph my colleague joeleen kennedy gave a talk a couple years ago at the first wordcamp us showcase day back in 2024 about work we had done customising the editor for that type of simplicity and in particular things that we can do around colour palette selection ways that we can hide the styling controls for certain blocks through having them embedded in a pattern p p class wp block paragraph it s interesting to see that in wordpress recently if you are editing content that has been marked as having come from a pattern in a post you can edit all of the text you can edit all of the images and link targets but you actually have to hit edit pattern in the sidebar in some cases depending on how the post is set up to get into the details within the post that allow all of those other controls to be visible p p class wp block paragraph that divide took a tiny bit of adjustment for people on our client teams but the separation has helped them stay focused on the content and worry less about the overwhelming combinatorial set of styling possibilities that their blocks have p p class wp block paragraph 00 27 29 strong nathan wrigley strong do you think that the necessary tools are already built into wordpress to do the kind of work that you are doing or is there some missing piece that would make it easier for somebody who doesn t have the deep pockets that presumably human made would require to do that kind of work is the default tooling usually okay to migrate things or have you had to build loads of bespoke tooling p p class wp block paragraph so in terms of if i was to approach a wordpress website and try to migrate from sitecore over to wordpress is this something that you absolutely need a team to do or would you be able to get some simulation of this with core wordpress p p class wp block paragraph 00 28 04 strong k adam white strong if you had access to the exports of data from a sitecore website and you had a core vanilla wordpress install and you had a llm tool of some sort i think that you could do a lot to get close to what you want the llm piece i think enables this to be done by more people without having to be completely familiar with all of the internal nuances of wordpress you need to direct it to the architectural pattern that you want but we have found that it speaks gutenberg pretty well p p class wp block paragraph 00 28 32 strong nathan wrigley strong what was the name of the tool that you said you d custom and built p p class wp block paragraph 00 28 34 strong k adam white strong we had built a plugin called rehydrator p p class wp block paragraph 00 28 36 strong nathan wrigley strong okay rehydrator yeah p p class wp block paragraph 00 28 37 strong k adam white strong rehydrator is the tool that we use to take a pattern in the theme and then use that pattern as the template when we re bringing content over to make sure that we keep all of the styling theme side and that our migration script doesn t duplicate the markup specifically p p class wp block paragraph 00 28 51 strong nathan wrigley strong what s human made s approach to the wordpress project in that regard you said it was a plugin does that mean it s a wordpress org repository plugin or is it one that you have on your own i don t know github repository or whatever it may be p p class wp block paragraph 00 29 01 strong k adam white strong we have some things in the org repository in this case that particular plugin is only on github a number of ones that we build are only on github because we re building them for a very transient in time period of a site p p class wp block paragraph you don t need a migration tool to be part of your site long term it s not something you re going to be leaving active and updating month over month when there is a site running it s something that you bring in for the purpose of populating the data and then you can remove that p p class wp block paragraph and in that regard for this particular one at the moment it s partly because it s quite young and it s also because we don t see it as being general purpose so that plugin specifically is on github and publicly available through composer but not on the plugin directory p p class wp block paragraph in other situations we ve gone the opposite direction and anything that we see as being a ongoing value to a site as it s running we do try to move those over as we can p p class wp block paragraph 00 29 52 strong nathan wrigley strong given that you are on the sort of engineering side of human made i don t know if this question will land but we seem to be in this interesting period where there s a lot of chatter ai kind of fits into the equation a little bit but there s a lot of chatter about the market share of wordpress and whether or not wordpress as a tool will continue with the same numbers and clout and market share and all of those kind of things p p class wp block paragraph do you notice at the enterprise level that there s been any kind of change in a southerly direction maybe there s been a direct change in a northerly direction what i m trying to say is for the enterprise does wordpress still maintain that kind of pride place top of the tree or are you struggling to find new clients p p class wp block paragraph 00 30 28 strong k adam white strong we re not struggling to find new clients we re lucky that we re doing quite well on marketing and we also have had a very powerful year in terms of building relationships with new enterprises and finding ways to take the technology that we believe in and solve their problems with it p p class wp block paragraph but i would argue that wordpress has never been the top of the enterprise space and this actually goes back to your question about what is there that might be missing inside wordpress the biggest thing that i think someone gets from a more i m going to use the term loosely traditional enterprise cms is control p p class wp block paragraph and wordpress has a security model where the ability to edit and publish a piece of content is usually at the post level there s ways to add specific permission checks for metadata there s ways that you can restrict what s accessible and editable with custom interfaces and custom api endpoints but we tend to have things fall down to the capability checks for user can edit post 1 2 3 yes no p p class wp block paragraph and that means that if you have a user profile where your organisation depends on someone being able to come in and touch only the headlines and the seo metadata we don t really have a model for that right now in wordpress p p class wp block paragraph where...