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reading revival 2 reading revival 2 the first sequel reading revival 2 reads ngarla songs by alexander brown brian geytenbeek a collection of 20c indigenous songs translated from ngarla into english for previous revival incarnation hit link below saturday december 02 2006 more on translation from an email from jeff s i know it is too late for your blog but i thought this may be of interest in giorgio agamben s remnants of auschwitz he cites various poets the poetry is presented in the italian in the format of the poem with verse or whatever then translated into english as one paragraph looking like a piece of prose dispensing with the formal layout of the poem no verses etc the translations give a very good appreciation of the poem but do not present as being the poem as such i thought this would have been a good way to proceed with ngarla songs the translations this is with my having no understanding of any aboriginal languages seemed to me to be stiltled in atempting to match appropriate phrases i felt frustrated often feeling that i was missing something perhaps the approach adopted by daniel heller roazen in translating agamben could have been of use to brian geytenbeek allowing for a more open translation posted by michaelf 8 00 am 0 comments more from brian g by all means share whatever bits you wish on the blog languages are fascinating things and people who enjoy reading probably also enjoy thinking about the numerous different ways in which human beings can couch their thoughts in other languages especially when other people s world views are quite different from our own the anthropological rule of thumb is that it s not wrong to be different the only exception to that would be where a culture s moral standards are in serious conflict with god s but whose isn t that s why he gave us the bible to alert us to the fact and encourage us to do something about it incidentally i forgot to mention last night that in aboriginal languages in the pilbara the pronouns do not include any gender distinction in each language they have just one pronoun where english has three he she it his hers its to for him to for her to for it many aboriginal people in the pilbara who are still switching over to speaking english have not yet learned to make the 3 way distinction and so far have latched onto just the one form he and use that for all three thus those speakers will commonly refer to women and to things as he see that woman over there i ve gotta marry his daughter as the years go by and their control of english gets better they start to build in the extra forms ngarla is an exception with regard to the to for him to for her to for it set instead of just one form for those ngarla dual and plural pronouns those two and those three or more have two a weak one and a strong one and for just the 1st 2nd and 3rd person singular it has three which i am currently calling weak medium and strong i don t know why it has these extra forms i haven t worked it out and may never be able to do so but then my job as a linguist is not to tell a language what it can or can t do my job is to find out what it actually does do and then hopefully describe what it does in a non technical way that aborigines literate in english can understand and enjoy and benefit from in contrast to the pilbara languages bandjalang that my wife and i worked on in nsw in the 1960s had 4 noun classes masculine feminine neuter and trees best wishes brian posted by michaelf 7 56 am 0 comments a response from brian geytenbeek the ngarla songs translator re the comment on 17 august about pronouns 1 ngarla often omits them once a discourse has been commenced and the stage set from then on cultural understanding of the context often makes them unnecessary and usually they are only added if one wishes to emphasise them e g they are the ones at fault not me thus if you build them into ordinary ngarla sentences you will skew the meaning considerably from their point of view and the readers would be quite puzzled 2 in the second verse about the koolinda the composer talks to the ship in the first line then describes what happens after the ship does what he told it to do in the third verse the he and the they are the bosun and crew then in the final line the composer talks to the ship again 3 in piyuwiki buick all three mentions of he in the second verse refer to the driver not to the car the pronouns are in fact non existent in the ngarla but they have to be provided in english or the english would not make sense to an english speaker though they would to a ngarla speaker who knew a bit of english an interesting example of the basic principle of translation translation must be of the meaning not of the words most people just assume that you have to translate each word in the source language with an equivalent word in the receptor language but that is not the case at all figurative speech illustrates this well for instance if someone literally kicked the bucket on the back porch you would never translate the information in the form of he kicked the bucket because that would communicate the idea that he had died instead you would use some other circumlocution maybe he bumped the bucket with his foot it s the meaning that counts not the words used to convey the meaning actually whether you use half as many words or twice as many words in the receptor language may not be very relevant the important things are that a the result in the receptor language is so natural that the hearers readers will not be conscious of the fact that it is a translation and b the hearers readers in the receptor language will get the same message and feel the same impact as did the original hearers readers in the source language that s what a translator is supposed to aim at anyway whether he can always hit it or not is another matter thus genre styles need to be genuine for the receptor language too there is a marked difference in ngarla between narrative genre and poetic genre in some songs i had to work hard to express the poetic meanings that were in the ngarla in suitably poetic styles in english especially with a few songs which were expressed not in full intelligible sentences but in one word short hand poetic images in these the aboriginal hearers understood perfectly all the cultural clues and implications just from one word but english readers wouldn t have had a clue what was going on someone spotted alex beeton s aboriginal nickname probably alex beeton never even knew that that is what they called him actually his name happens to be in the nyangumarta language that i ve spent 30 years on not the ngarla one it was very descriptive he had a huge paunch and when he laughed he had a huge belly laugh and his belly bounced up and down hence his nickname dancing stomach posted by michaelf 7 51 am 0 comments thursday october 05 2006 thanks derek and louise for your comments reading revival 3 is now up running walking for current book australian passport by s s charkianakis go to reading revival 3 the blog you are reading now contains 3 months of commentary relating to ngarla songs post any comments on ngarla songs here they will still be read responded to posted by michaelf 7 32 am 0 comments sunday september 24 2006 reading revival needs a revival the blogs not dead but i have been discouraged parly by technical difficulties problems with logging on which seem to have gone away and also by lack of commentary interest in the book when i went to w a its a very interesting book for lots of reasons as hopefully my posts have shown the intention with r r was that it be a forum a collective contribution to local critical culture but it seems to be mainly a disconnected monologue an interesting new critical form tho i think i am considering the possibility of the blog becoming more of a support for a poetry book group s with less regular postings any feedback welcome posted by michaelf 8 12 am 1 comments reading revival needs a revival the blogs not dead but i have been discouraged parly by technical difficulties problems with logging on which seem to have gone away and also by lack of commentary interest in the book when i went to w a its a very interesting book for lots of reasons as hopefully my posts have shown the intention with r r was that it be a forum a collective contribution to local critical culture but it seems to be mainly a disconnected monologue an interesting new critical form tho i think i am considering the possibility of the blog becoming more of a support for a poetry book group s with less regular postings any feedback welcome posted by michaelf 8 12 am 1 comments friday august 25 2006 one book has gone in the giveaway to pb in sydney one still available for the first w a reader to email me readingrevival at gmail dot com posted by michaelf 7 26 am 2 comments thursday august 24 2006 the first reader to email me at readingrevival at gmail dot com with a w a address will receive a copy of ngarla songs courtesy of fremantle arts centre press another copy is available to the first reader from anywhere else thanks to nyanda for arranging this posted by michaelf 8 21 am 4 comments saturday august 19 2006 ngarla songs book group today at st kilda library 2pm posted by michaelf 8 44 am 1 comments thursday august 17 2006 in piyuwiki buick pp 50 1 by wirrkaru jingkiri there is because of the grammatical structure the same ambiguity that was in the koolinda poem pp 40 1 with regard to gender and pronoun the he in the poem seems to refer to the car then the meaning slides to the referent of the driver im assuming that theres something of this aspect in the ngarla also the effect is not just to gender anthropomorphise the car but to suggest that there isnt a limit to the driver or car that they are one this five line poem is a belated refreshing anecdote to a terrible poem we did in class about a car being a woman some well known american novelist i think dickey one of those cummings has one also its sheer offensiveness somewhat redeems it the drivers name in the ngarla is given as ngarlu jurrkanalu in the english its alec beeton the notes dont explain why are any other bloggers having problems logging on posted by michaelf 8 08 am 7 comments about me name michaelf location melbourne australia this blog is not about me but about interesting books but as i dont have a personal blog heres the brief info on my own books 1 ode ode salt 2003 2 new break me ouch 3 deep 2006 graphic poetry to purchase go to my publisher s websites or or for any other reason email me readingrevival at gmail dot com a raiders guide coming soon from giramondo view my complete profile reading revival duty buy ngarla songs online abebooks australian online bookshop amazon amazon uk booktopia ngarla songs related publisher page api description previously more on translation from an email from jeff s i kn more from brian gby all means share whatever bits a response from brian geytenbeek the ngarla songs thanks derek and louise for your comments reading reading revival needs a revival the blogs not dea reading revival needs a revival the blogs not dea one book has gone in the giveaway to pb in sydney the first reader to email me at readingrevival at ngarla songs book group today at st kilda library in piyuwiki buick pp 50 1 by wirrkaru jingkir months june 2006 july 2006 august 2006 september 2006 october 2006 december 2006 poetry blogs alicia sometimes a new broom american aquarium drinker atonalist notes blue acres brandos hat cahiers de corey catherine daly conchology david prater diy poetics dragonfly on a dog chain do red gummi bears dream of rubber passionfruit elsewhere equanimity e x c h a n g e v a l u e s fait accompli fhole free space comix galatea resurrects gamma ways gelsinger here comes everybody hi spirits hot whiskey blog house press humming to itself limetree looktouchblog never neutral notes pantaloons tykes on poetry paul hoover poecosys p ramblings really bad movies rebel without a clause ruby street seattle surrealists sillimans blog spooks by me starcher one the chatelaines poetics the deletions the unquiet grave the well nourished moon transsubmutation tympan typing space verse visitor stats