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3rd edition roguish roguish a creature s reach should exceed its grasp menu home about contents masterposts tumblr archive tags κλεφτρονια contact search for 3rd edition the dumb fighter d d trope the dumb fighter is a d d cliché a trope we can even say it s an unofficial term like meatshield so is it a justified cliché not in recent editions but earlier yes i think it was cartoon by will mclean probably mid 70s to early 80s for starters in early editions you didn t choose your stats you rolled them in order 3d6 for each if you wanted to play a fighter or fighting man in od d and rolled str 4 you just didn t play a fighter if you rolled str 15 and int 4 you proceeded second and very important in od d and basic you could fiddle with some of your rolled stats and reduce one to increase another but not on a 1 1 basis fighters could lose 2 points of int to gain 1 point of str and having a higher str affected almost everything for fighters including xp so they had a strong incentive to do it it s not just about the math though thieves could also lower their int to raise their dex and yet dumb thief has never been a trope or term in d d i think the reasons for that are obvious people choose to play fighters to be badass and hit things people choose to play thieves or rogues to be smartass and steal things it ain t rocket science d d tropes have a lot of inertia they remain strong in the collective imagination long after the reason they came to be is gone ad d didn t keep all these rules people could also assign rolled scores to their stats choosing which are high and which are low with this arrangement fighters only dumped int if they chose to and you know what they often did ad d also had minimum scores and the paladin originally a fighter subclass had the strictest prerequisites str 12 int 9 wis 13 cha 17 i theorise that intelligence was included because otherwise paladins would end up dumber than their horse in any case that left vanilla fighters not required to be smarter than their intelligent magic sword and you know what they often weren t partly for optimisation reasons you got more benefits from keeping your other stats high cha affected npc reactions and henchmen wis affected saving throws and all int gave a non caster was languages and partly for roleplaying reasons real life fighting may be about tactics but strategic players weren t necessarily attracted to fighters not with these rules which gave them one option and that option was to hit it again then came 3rd edition which was complicated there were 173 splatbooks and a million rules there were tons of feats and all the fighter got was feats there were hundreds of classes and prestige classes many of them combat oriented and multiclassing was easy point buy became a popular method of generating ability scores which meant that once again people could reduce their int to boost their str if they do pleased and optimisation became a science peer previewed in dedicated forums at that point if all you wanted to do was hit it again you played a fighter dumped intelligence to boost your physical stats and took power attack and similar feats if you wanted tactical combat you could do it but then fighter was a dip class you d take 2 or 4 levels tops for the extra feats and then you had much better options some of which were int based you could build a strategic fighter by choosing the right feats a charger or a tripper or someone who focuses on attacks of opportunity but there were few good combos and some didn t need int at all while others had combat expertise and required int 13 that was basically the smartest normal fighter so the dumb fighter trope remained mind you it wasn t dumb warrior in general people who wanted to fight smart had plenty of options but playing a single class fighter was not the best or the most common and even then a high int was not required the order of the stick 791 by rich burlew at least in some circles one very famous fighter is roy greenhilt from the order of the stick and he has a very good int number not stated but fans have calculated it s 14 to 17 this is noted to be unusual considered suboptimal for fighters and whatchagonnado with it anyway well i ll tell you i ll figure out which columns are load bearing entice you to hit them using myself as bait and bring the whole building down on your head you oaf the order of the stick 808 by rich burlew basically roy was rich burlew s vehicle to push back against the dumb fighter trope to remind us that they don t have to be stupid and or useless and that copying an optimisation handbook is not the only way to build a character and play the game 5th edition is another animal altogether if we only look at base classes fighters have no incentive at all to boost their intelligence but neither does anyone else except int based casters all int gets you now is a rarely rolled saving throw and some skills it doesn t affect how many skills or languages you get any more so not even skillmonkeys are beholden to it unless they focus on int based skills uncharitable but not entirely undeserved wording in 5e dumb fighter isn t much of a trope because everyone is dumb once we look at subclasses though the picture changes there are actually more martial archetypes that have something to do with intelligence than there are roguish archetypes for me this is an affront eldtritch knights are int based half casters arcane archers get int based trick shots psi warriors get a bunch of stuff for comparison the roguish archetype named mastermind gets zero mechanical benefits from a high int the inquisitive is good with the investigation skill and the arcane trickster is the int based half caster as for tactical combat fighters are in the lead here battle masters get manoeuvres and perversely if you ask me no one else does not even swashbucklers tasha s cauldron of everything has an optional rule where all fighters regardless of archetype also get a single manoeuvre as a treat various martial archetypes come with various combat options of course it s very easy and not uncommon to play a fighter who does nothing but hit it again fighters excel in that what with action surge and a million extra attacks however if that s all you do and or if you dumped intelligence then it s clear you chose to be a dumb fighter the system didn t push you you had other options and you didn t take them so by now the dumb fighter trope is a bit of a relic it s a lot more undeserved now than it was in the 1970s it hasn t died out though one reason is inertia people hear an old cliché and repeat it and perpetuate it but another reason which i think is important is that at the end of the day despite all the available options most people who play d d just want to be badass and hit things the most popular choice of species class has always been and still remains human fighter personally i prefer to be smartass and steal things but to each their own original post posted in rogues in d d and tagged 3 5 3rd edition 5e ad d d d fighter od d on december 7 2022 by rogue leave a comment licence blog about contact contents resources bibliography categories rogues in d d rogues in fiction rogues in real life recent posts pickpocket a patently roguish word formation for i was in prison and you came to me ballads of the hanged swinging from the gallows tree rogues in fantasy ttrpgs that aren t dungeons dragons d d 5 5 2024 phb the sneak attacker s cheat sheet ways to attack with advantage d d 5 5 2024 phb rogue tweaks rogue phonics thieves guilds in history according to pathfinder knives for commoners cold iron in folklore fiction and rpgs top posts d d 5e roguish archetypes masterpost the theft of apollo s cattle the corsican vendetta knife toledo damascene knives rogue deities historical lockpicking corsairs pirates privateers an overlooked thieves tool the dark lantern the draw sword draw blood trope fact and fiction thieves guild on the march the procession of 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