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the bioscience resource project and the editor of independent science news dr latham is also the director of the poison papers project which publicizes documents of the chemical industry and its regulators dr latham holds a masters degree in crop genetics and a phd in virology he was subsequently a postdoctoral research associate in the department of genetics university of wisconsin madison he has published scientific papers in disciplines as diverse as plant ecology plant virology genetics and genetic engineering dr latham talks frequently at international events and scientific and regulatory conferences on the research conducted by the project he has written for truthout mit technology review the guardian resilience and many other magazines and websites today we talk about the poison papers project so first thank you for your work and second thank you for being on the program jl hi there derrick dj so what is the poison papers project jl the project started at least as far as i m concerned in 2015 there was a lady called carol van strum who lives in oregon and she is a homesteader she was writing an article for a website that i am editor of which is called independent science news and carol was making some strong claims about what she knew about the functioning of the environmental protection agency because we re running as a science website i said carol you have to back up these claims we need to see evidence of the existence of secret committees and things like that she was making very strong claims and so i said we have to see these documents in order for you to be able to write on our website so we went back and forth over this and she had nothing online or nothing in any electronic format that she could show me and she would say things like oh this paper is in my barn i have the evidence in my barn and so on and so forth and so i became interested in carol s barn and i said what do you have in your barn long story short she had about two and a half tons of paper which was essentially obtained by her through things like the freedom of information act through her work with various lawyers who ve sued multinational companies over chemical toxicity issues also from freedom of information act requests to other government agencies like the bureau of land management and the veterans administration and also some of the documents came from whistle blowers so she had a whole kind of collection of information which started her story basically was that she and her family they live in oregon back out in the woods somewhere and they d been sprayed by airplanes in the late 1970 s and it turns out that what they were sprayed with was agent orange and her children became sick and some of their animals died fish were dying in the river all kinds of bad things were happening that were clearly associated with this chemical spraying and all she got from the authorities was reassurance about how she must be mistaken and contradictions from the governor and all kinds of local authorities and agencies and even the epa itself everybody was fobbing her off so she started on a campaign to basically try to figure out what all these agencies and even the companies knew about the toxicity of these products so she ended up teasing out all of this information from various groups and she ended up with this huge pile of documents that by the time i spoke to her was rotting away in her barn and i said well why don t we try to come up with some way that we can photocopy and scan all these documents and preserve them for posterity because it sounds carol like you have a lot of stuff that s super interesting and so we re now in the process of we ve now put it online we have taken all these documents and we ve put them on this thing called document cloud and we ve started a website called poisonpapers org and that is a way for people to access these documents and so we re now in the process of trying to get academics various people anybody really members of the public interested in making sense of these documents because there are stories that we know about in here but there s also a lot of information that even carol doesn t always know what is in these documents hopefully we can talk about some of the specific contents in a minute but essentially it s this vast trove of papers that reveal a whole host of incriminating things not only about the companies and what the companies knew and it was earlier than what they ve always claimed but also most important and interesting to us was what the epa knew about all these things because it s a commonplace story that everybody knows that the companies are perfidious and they hide the information about the lack of safety of their products and so on and so on products that are put onto the market and are not safe but at the same time the really interesting question in all this is what did the government know about all these products were they completely complicit in all this pollution these vast amounts of pcb s that are in our waterways and dioxins in the food supply and the pollution of the oceans and the pollution of superfund sites and so on and so forth what did they really know about this epidemic of pollution dj so before we ask about that i want to ask a trivial question you said two and a half tons of paper can you do even a rough estimate of how many pages that is jl it s between two and three hundred thousand pages dj wow okay so let s dive into the real subject then what do these pages actually reveal can you tell some of the stories revealed in there about the relationship between for example the epa and the toxification of the total environment jl mm yeah this had many angles to it i would say it s a very complicated story towards the end of the interview maybe we ll get down to what is the order behind the chaos what i want to help people to understand in the first instance is that there is a high level of complicity between the agencies and the companies and so we have for example there are documents in there some of the first things that carol found out was that the epa knew quite a bit about the toxicity for example of dioxin dioxin is a family of chemicals and i ll call them single but many people call them plural but basically it s a family of chemicals that are byproducts of the production process of chlorinated hydrocarbons many people think that pretty much any chlorinated hydrocarbon would have some proportion of dioxins present in the manufacturing process and there are many chemicals for example 2 4 d and 2 4 5 t whose structure is very similar to dioxin basically there are two benzene rings and they re joined together and then they re decorated with chlorine molecules so this is kind of like an endpoint structure of the chemical reaction process and essentially the longer and hotter that you run those reactions the more likely you are to get to these endpoints with these double ringed structures all covered in chlorine molecules that are essentially incredibly toxic to people depending on the process down to about a couple of parts per trillion can be hazardous to the development of animals so these are things for which there s no safe dose and for which essentially any dose is going to cause you harm and not all of this was known in the 1970 s but they knew that extremely small quantities could harm people and the chemical industry has actually known this for a very long time because they re in a sense ubiquitous as products of chlorinated hydrocarbon chemistry the chemical industry has known for a long time that there were certain chemical processes that caused workers at factories to become sick the workers would get spots on them and they would often have things like immune problems later in life dioxins cause cancer and other toxicological consequences but the immediate consequence the kind of consequence you re going to notice as part of your workforce evaluations or just wandering around the site will be things like liver toxicity and these spots and the company workers for example one of the things that s interesting about the papers is they document how in the 1960 s dow chemical in michigan were manufacturing agent orange so you can imagine this is a chemical that s caused millions of birth defects around the world and they were producing it on that site in huge quantities the thing that s most dangerous about agent orange is these dioxin contaminants the chemicals themselves are not good and they will give you serious illnesses all on their own but dioxins are probably several orders of magnitude more toxic than the chemicals themselves so what the chemical companies found was that their workers were basically in certain parts of the plant where they were making these ring structures were getting these really bad sort of acne spots and so they started talking to other companies about what was going on here and there were always certain people in all these companies who knew quite a bit about the toxicological history of these things you know people are always cycling through these companies but they knew back to even to the 19th century people have been reporting these kinds of symptoms from the use of chlorinated hydrocarbons and between them they were in discussions they were exchanging letters with each other about chemical accidents for example in which people had been exposed and especially you got these problems when chemical accidents happened basically the temperature runs too high your vat explodes or whatever lots of people get contaminated and you contaminate a large area in and around the plant what s happening in those chemical explosions is the reactions are running ahead of the production of the thing that you want and they re producing dioxins so at the same time as you re having this accident you get these dioxins produced in particularly high quantities so they were exchanging information firstly about the nature of these accidents secondly about the nature of the illnesses that the workers were suffering from but also what they knew was that the workers were suffering from similar illnesses even as a result of normal production processes companies are not stupid they can see perfectly well they may pretend that they don t know all kinds of stuff but they have methods of figuring things out so for example after one of their accidents bayer i think it was one of the german companies basf or bayer they put animals into the factory where the workers were and the animals were dead after 24 hours and so they knew that this was a highly toxic byproduct that had come out of these experiments and they didn t necessarily tell their workers but they understood this information was being shared at high levels of management but it s also the case that workers in these factories often knew more than the management really wanted them to in dow s michigan plant when they were making agent orange they pretty much had a worker revolt because what was going on at the factory was that the workers were developing this acne they knew you weren t supposed to have acne secondly the acne was associated with all kinds of other illnesses like immune problems and liver problems and muscle fatigue and all kinds of not nice things that were happening to these workers and so there were workers having to be taken off and moved to different parts of the factory so workers were talking to each other about how they were becoming sick the company was having to listen to worker demands about their concerns about the product and working in these particular buildings where they were involved in these particular processes so dow went through this whole process of we ll put a doctor in the plant and we ll try to keep workers in there for a minimal amount of time we ll try to reduce all the leaks and various things and they ended up walling off that whole section of the plant and having people not go in there very often but there s a whole report written by dow chemical firstly about their discussions with all the other companies and secondly about all these toxicological consequences that they were figuring out came from a small contaminant that was in their product this predates the viet nam war by ten years their public admissions and public understandings of the toxicity of 2 4 d and agent orange and so forth by quite a long time their various understandings of problems that go back before the second world war for example and then this culminates into this industry understanding in which the big companies try to educate the small companies into you re making this product but you don t have this long history of understanding that these byproducts in here are problematic issues that you need to deal with and so they re all exchanging letters among each other and having meetings calling meetings we re going to tell the epa this was before the epa even existed right we re going to tell the government and so on and so forth so all this narrative is contained within these papers so that s an example of one of the stories dj just so we re really clear one of the horrors of this is that at the same time that they are openly discussing among themselves what do we do about this or that problem they are publicly insisting that there is no problem is that part of the atrocity of it jl yeah yeah this press release from the head of dow chemical for example saying that they don t know of any problems with agent orange and so forth yep dj and in these hundreds of thousands of pages who else are some of the actors that don t come across well you ve talked about dow basf maybe bayer the epa and what are a couple other of the stories that are told that people really should know about jl the people who come out of this in some senses worst in that they have a reasonable public image is the epa some of your readers may have heard of a lab called industrial biotest labs they were a chemical testing company we have a system in this country where it s sort of presumed that an independent lab will do actual experiments on the animals to look at the toxicological consequences of a company s product and the idea is that this chemical testing lab is independent of the manufacturer this independence is i would say entirely fictitious because the manufacturers are repeat customers of these independent chemical testing labs the manufacturers will also shop around imagine there are ten labs doing independent testing they will go to these labs and they will notice that an honest lab is coming back with all kinds of results about carcinogenicity fetal toxicity all kinds of stuff and there are some labs that are not giving them that information for whatever reasons they re giving their product a clean bill of health so you can easily imagine that there s a huge incentive for these independent testing labs to deliver fraudulent results it stands to reason and what happened in the case of industrial biotest labs is th...