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it which with a bit of hindsight was probably the best decision we ever made now you can talk to computers that sit in a tiny box in your kitchen and it will give you coherent answers to everything do you feel like you re a very privileged person to have stepped into the broader internet and all that that offers 00 08 28 matt medeiros my genesis around getting into this space if you want to go even deeper into the rabbit hole of who matt medeiros is is my family ran a string of car dealerships for about 45 years in my local my local area we weren t like this big massive conglomerate auto dealership we just had two family owned and operated it was the technology that was moving fast paced in that world consumer internet being born websites you know this all sounds pretty trivial but back then it was like oh wow we can post a car on the internet and somebody can look at it and email us or most likely call us back then and buy it speaking of the privilege that like being in that space having a family that ran this dealership but because i was the youngest one and i was into it i was the one that put all the technology together from general motors right they were literally talking to an 17 18 year old at the time as the head of the internet department because i was the only one who got it who understood it my dad did but you know i sort of led the charge on that and i remember being in college and you know when you look at wordpress and open source one of my uh capstone courses was to build something with i forget what the terms were but they said build it with multiple packages and back then i was learning like linux and novell and and windows nt and i remember building php nuke with a bulletin board with a blog roll and i was building a car site and i was like wouldn t it be awesome if somebody could go to this website and book an oil change for their car by filling out this form and then if you had questions about repairing your car you could come to this thing called a bulletin board and have like this little community what i was doing back then was doing everything that social that we all take for granted these days with the advancement of technology and i was like wiring it together with little open source packages so yeah roundabout way of getting to yeah i feel pretty lucky to fall into that space at an early age 00 10 30 nathan wrigley i feel that you and i hit a time when you could flip from just having any kind of job into working on the internet because the barrier to entry in terms of knowledge was so low you basically had to learn html and then along came css it was straightforward i think the promise now is much more difficult i can t really imagine what it must be like for somebody at the age of 17 or 18 the things that they must need to learn in order to become employable speaking of the internet you mentioned social media and what have you i wonder what your thoughts are on that i know that we re straying away a little bit from wordpress but it does touch on gpl and it does touch on the broader purpose of the internet what are your feelings about how the internet has evolved over the last let s say seven eight years things like facebook social media and the associated benefits and harms that go with it 00 11 25 matt medeiros i don t think humans were ready to be wired up emotionally to the level that we re at these days spanning across many many contexts right from your everyday life of sharing pictures of what you re eating what your kids are doing to more serious things like health wellness mental health couple weeks ago suddenly lost my father in law and like the grieving factor of online and you really start to sit back and say like what what is this like why is this value all of us connected like this are we really together in this or is it just this digital connection that sort of literally just disappears as the feed refreshes and it really starts to have you question all of these things now there s definitely many many benefits i mean friends that i ve made through social the businesses that i ve built and continue to build there s definitely a plus factor but there s a huge negative and and things that i don t think human beings are really ready for and i look at it in two different ways one i have three very young sons three boys under the ages of six and i m just like mentally preparing on how to onboard them to the internet how i will do that but i also see things from the broader perspective is you and i are content creators we re just playing in the wordpress world mostly and softwares and stuff like that but i see people who are whatever they re into fashion they re into tech they re into video games and there s a burnout factor there s a i must continue to create all of this content to please these people who really don t care about me factor and then there s those who really become hits they do really well and they re not ready for that fame and that spotlight because they re one person with a million youtube subscribers in their home office and they re not ready for what that s like to have all of these humans watching them and asking them for things and it s just it s not a mindset that i think we re all really ready for without some education but we re so early that 50 years from now it s it s probably not going to be a thing because we re we re still cresting the analog to the digital like you said the young folks how are they going to get jobs i think the the issue is is they lose the fundamentals of building technology when i was learning how to build a website i was learning how to build a computer so i knew that there was a cpu and memory and a hard disc and these things were storing this content and yada all that fun stuff now with the introduction of whatever let s say easy web website builders and you just talk to ai and it codes a website for you there are going to be this swath of people who just don t know where all of this stuff lives and how it s all connected so that was a deep rabbit hole that i just went down and i hope we tumbled around it 00 14 14 nathan wrigley yeah really interesting you mentioned your three children and i think that s really fascinating for me i have children as well and one of the things that i struggle with on the one hand i m really a proponent of technology i love it there s almost nothing about it that i don t love and yet at the same time i ve noticed that my children have been born into an era in which technology could be literally welded to your hand and you know there s no escape from it and so the notifications can come in at all times of day and night stress there on night so it disrupts things like it disrupts the normal cycle of interpersonal relations in a room because there s a bing bong on a phone and suddenly you re distracted and the reason for being in the room with other people is somewhat shattered and then you hear about people who leave their phones by their bedsides and the phone goes off in the middle of the night and it disrupts their sleep and all of these impacts and whilst i am boldly a proponent of the internet there are aspects of it which trouble me and i think your wise point there right at the end was that we re young to this we re 20 years in maybe a little bit more but let s say roughly 20 years in and so we don t really know where this is going it s kind of like steering a ship i m imagining somebody in 1492 christopher columbus or somebody on a ship you know they ve set sail they know they ve got a destination but they don t know how long it s going to be or when they re going to get there this feels to me like the internet and i do wonder if some of these things that we may regard as bad habits at the moment will get washed away and replaced hopefully with more beneficial things i m optimistic about that 00 15 52 matt medeiros yeah i agree 00 15 53 nathan wrigley let s just turn to the wordpress space generally speaking so you ve been in it for a long time certainly much longer than i have and you ve been somebody that s been observing the wordpress space not just using the software but considering it considering the impact of it considering the business that can be made around it and looking at the plugins and the themes and all of that and having a critical eye on it this is a very broad question but i m going to ask it anyway what have you noticed as the main changes over time young people to the community you ve been in the community using wordpress for a couple of years they won t know that there s been any changes the software s just the software but there s been a lot what do you think the main things have been for you 00 16 29 matt medeiros yeah i m i m going to try to summarize this as quickly as possible that we can break off into different paths that i think are are relevant but there was certainly a long span of the same folks doing the same wordcamp talks i m not saying this in a bad way but there was i don t know a 10 year cohort of wordpress that i felt we were all jiving and doing the same thing showing up to the wordcamps and everyone knew each other the real pivotal milestone for better or worse was the introduction of gutenberg and the software and how it was introduced and all that stuff those pages in the history books have already been written i think it was at that point where a certain segment of the community was one they were like i don t want this in wordpress so i m done there was another segment where we don t know how to code around this and i don t want this coding overhead and then there was a third in my view where a lot of people used it excuse might be the wrong word but it was certainly a time where man you re 10 or whatever it was 10 or 12 years into software that s a lifetime of using the same shiny tool and there s just this natural thing i think of all of us who are like technologists or like 10 12 years in ah i just got to try something else and that was a moment two thirds of these people are leaving because of these reasons i guess i ll leave too and go find another shiny object and that s where i guess the no code market really stepped in not saying because of wordpress but it was certainly a right time right place kind of thing where those tools were getting shinier and better and it was a great moment for them to somebody else to be like ah webflow ah wix squarespace shopify coda notion all these things that we re just like piecing together like we did with wordpress 10 years ago now we can do this again here with these shiny faster free tools so that s the way that i see it that change in the community over the milestone of gutenberg and up until now there s a lot of fresh faces in here which is great but there s less of this i don t know warm blanket around all of us these days that used to be there for a good 10 year cohort one of the reasons why i started the matt report at the time was one it s because i wasn t a developer and i didn t know anyone i didn t know how to talk to developers so i said well i ll just interview them and and promote them so that they can get jobs and maybe i ll learn more people but two when i was at one of my first wordcamps perfect example there was you know one of the core contributors of wordpress and he would walk by and people like oh i really want to talk to him i m afraid to talk to him so there was like this celebrity status kind of thing and that s when it hit me like oh people really care about these other people in the community let me go and find them and interview them and prop them up so other people can meet them instead of being you know shy or worried to talk about them at a wordcamp so i think the biggest change for me anyway has been the community in the involvement of everyone 00 19 24 nathan wrigley did i get a sense i could be wrong forgive me if i got this sense and my spidey sense was tingling in the wrong direction but i kind of got a feeling about three or four years ago that you you kinda fell out of love a little bit with wordpress and were seeking paths new but then you ve drifted back in drift is the wrong word you ve come back in with great aplomb you know you re back in making all the content and what have you is that true did you find yourself in that miasma thinking i don t really know whether i belong anymore 00 19 55 matt medeiros picture us in the in my therapist office and you re sitting across from me with your pen and notepad there s a lot of things that go into that feeling you re not totally wrong but as you know as a content creator you continue to create all the content and quite literally i burned out on the youtube stuff because it was just a hard slog on the plugin tut channel but then it was how do i really grow this how do i grow this podcast and bring in other other voices because the same thing i just mentioned about this 10 year cohort all the same people i could feel those effects on the content that i was doing that s when i started to introduce the no code maybe the more business aspect saas developers stuff like that and bringing that into the fold it certainly my love for wordpress it actually goes much deeper than the software i think that wordpress itself is speaking of like jobs and education this is a tool that can empower individuals local organizations states towns to put people into a workforce and wordpress is i think a great learning tool a great building tool to do all that stuff aside from the fun web stuff that we can do with it so you re not too far off but there was sort of a reshaping of how do i introduce new voices because i could feel probably just like you the social media the engagement of everyone sort of just getting burned out from the same old thing in wordpress and that was probably me shifting the way i do content at the time 00 21 32 nathan wrigley so shifting more recently your content creation it s not entirely this but you ve moved to a new moniker you ve got the wp minute just give us a bit of an insight into what the intention was there and how it s going 00 21 46 matt medeiros we can thank our mutual friend davinder singh kainth for getting me into this uh yet another content rabbit hole but i also thank him very much for pushing me in this direction i had an idea that i pitched to him one day and i was like hey probably just like your spidey sense went off i ve gotten really busy with the castos day job three young boys it s like how the heck can i even do long form content anymore so i wanted to do short form content and i approached davinder and i said hey what i d really like to do is a spoken version of your of your newsletter fast forward to make a long story short he just said how about you just start your own and i ll just support you and i said i don t really want to do my own i just want to just want to piggyback off of somebody else and that s how we we got into the wp minute so it s your favorite five 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