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Text of the page (random words):
random thoughts i rule you read random thoughts i rule you read documents 6 posted in documents on june 13 2011 by zack entries 1 to 35 are to be read together they all deal with the talmage roberts smith affair nevo was kind enough on this thread to link to the authoritative texts on the subject these documents can be read in tandem with those articles i have never read those articles and i don t know what they include however i doubt though i could be mistaken that the articles include for example smith s complete 63 page snoozer to the quorum of the twelve i am only sorry i don t have a copy of the roberts response talmage s the coming of man and the earth and man can be found in various sources but i doubt the earth and man comes with the frontispiece attached here with the handwritten false doctrine in joseph fielding smith s handwriting on the cover of the pamphlet that was published as well as with the edits in talmage s handwriting 1 talmage diary and journal 1881 1926 2 talmage the coming of man part one 3 talmage the coming of man part two 4 heber j 5 correspondence roberts to clawson 6 correspondence clawson to smith et al 7 correspondence smith to clawson 8 correspondence roberts to grant 9 correspondence roberts to clawson2 10 correspondence smith to clawson2 11 talmage earth and man 12 smith address to quorum of the twelve 13 smith address to quorum of the twelve part two 14 smith address to quorum of the twelve part three 15 smith address to the quorum of the twelve part four 16 smith address to the quorum of the twelve part five 17 smith address to the quorum of the twelve part six 18 correspondence clawson to grant 19 talmage journal 1931 20 first presidency to general authorities 21 correspondence talmage and smoot 22 report of pres clawson 23 correspondence widtsoe and lyman 24 george richards diary entry 25 correspondence clawson to smith iii 26 correspondence swg _ to _ 27 correspondence widtsoe to clawson 28 roberts immortality of man 29 poll conversation with smith 30 correspondence poll to wilkinson 31 complaints against poll 32 correspondence smith to perry 33 correspondence from mckay s office in re smith s book 34 correspondence from first presidency in re fletcher s reminiscences 35 correspondence romney davidson 3 number 36 is really a separate issue from the affair documented in 1 35 but i am sure a lot of you would be interested in actually reading the report from romney to mckay on mcconkie s mormon doctrine also included are diary entries regarding that report 36 mcconkie and mormon doctrine finally the 37 st entry is my own typewritten documentary what was a labor of love originally for all my cousins most if not all of the above have been typed into this documentary and there is a lot more included there such as bios of the main players a lot more stuff from church sources on science and evolution which should fill in all the holes i must admit i finally burned out on the project but may one day finish it completely there is so much stuff to add including all the stuff out of byu idaho and the evolution packet from byu after typing out nibley s before adam i was done what a ridiculous paper i was embarrassed for him after reading that it literally says nothing he was a master at that trick i still crack up when apologists immediately send you to this article in particular when questioning the whole evolution creation problem in mormon thought so folks for those of you still thinking this is an important issue i hope you can benefit from this collection spread it around don t hold on to it without giving it to someone else that is really all i want that those just beginning to question all these things can go to some source somewhere and see how the church has handled the problem not very well in my opinion end of the science documents 37 mormonism and evolution a historical documentary leave a comment documents 5 posted in documents on june 11 2011 by zack perhaps we all have heard of the address by reed durham jr concerning the involvement of joseph smith in masonry and we perhaps have even read it most likely if you have read it you also know of the mervin hogan address both of these are on the internet you also may have heard of and even read the apology by durham it can be found on wikipedia i have included the actual apology mimeograph what i couldn t find on the internet was jack adamson s paper of ape and angel fame also given at the same conference so this should fill in or complete your files enjoy the read the following talmage material is the first small packet of my science and evolution files i really don t know if this is available or not though it is probably out in some book or other by now i haven t followed along to know what is out there now but enjoy if you haven t read this stuff before no help for widow s son adamson hogan durham talmage diary and journal 1881 1926 leave a comment documents 4 posted in documents on june 11 2011 by zack mcmurrin mckay correspondence i think most of this is out there but i am not sure if all of it is mcmurrin had stacks of these when he handed me one of them and told me to enjoy the read i hope you do too especially for those who don t have access to dialogue and sunstone this is a nice summary of his involvement in the negro problem i m doubting whether all of the letters here are out in the public domain but i may be wrong well enjoy it as i am sure he would tell you to do as well this is what he handed to visitors when they asked him about the topic i m looking for some other things from him and if i can round them up they will come in the second tranch adamson ape or angel my advisor in the english department turned me on to jack adamson although not mormon my advisor had great respect for jack adamson he was however already gone by the time i showed up so i never took a class with him he also co authored a couple of biographies including one on sir walter raleigh that was favorably reviewed i don t know why but this paper he gave where i am not sure now really influenced me as well i hope you enjoy it as much as i did ernest l wilkinson diary comprehensive index parts one two three and four i really get a kick out of this still today there is just some damn funny stuff in here as you all know already ernest l wilkinson was quite the character of course you can read all about him and the byu in bergera s book but i don t think you can get the whole index out of that book when i googled it i saw that it is in the marquardt papers in the harold b lee library special collections department if you can t get there to read it well now you don t have to enjoy check out especially the mcmurrin and madsen truman entries truman madsen listed on the faculty as having a ph d two years before he ever received it good stuff all the way through i am working now on the second tranch dedicated to science and evolution here is one entry from the oral history of byu 17 harvey fletcher p 11 you know they re not always agreeing in the twelve on some of these things particularly when it deals with science he now referring to brother widtsoe said brother joseph fielding smith and brother talmage used to have it pretty hot sometimes and he said that brother talmage see he talked about fossils and that was part of his subject as a geologist went down to adam ondi aman where the alter of adam is supposed to be and he had a pick and picked around through it and finally found a fossil right in the cement of this altar he found two or three of them and brought them up and put them in a bag and brought them home he said he came back at sic one of the meetings of the twelve and he said now brother joseph i understand that you thoroughly believe and are very sure that the first man on earth was adam the first life was adam he said i certainly do believe that he said well what about these then he handed out the fossils and said i found those in the altar funny stuff can t really imagine that happening today with elders scott and bednar can you i think there will be some things in this tranch that maybe no one has had their hands on yet i guess we will see mcmurrin mckay correspondence adamson ape or angel ernest l wilkinson diary part one ernest l wilkinson diary part two ernest l wilkinson diary part three ernest l wilkinson diary part four leave a comment documents 3 posted in documents on june 10 2011 by zack i hope everyone enjoys the material cached here there should be a little bit for all of you i trust some of the material to be cached here started showing up through the mormon underground while leonard arrington was at the helm i was a university of utah student at the time and studied with some of the scholars featured here they gave me a lot of this stuff i also have an uncle a history professor who directed me to other material and shared what he had freely with me i was also led to a lot of material by an institute teacher who at that time was teaching at the u of u institute u carlisle hunsaker who taught the lds doctrine and philosophy course for many years he was booted out after refusing to back down to threats that he would lose his job if he participated in sunstone symposiums all instigated by elder packer that really was the final nail in the coffin well that and my family totally freaking out and treating me like s for having questions and doubts that was ages ago it seems i hadn t looked at this stuff for a long time until recently and it brings back lots of mixed feelings but for me it wasn t church history that did me in neither was it sunday church culture though i never really enjoyed that nor felt comfortable in it i was swept away by my studies in science specifically evolution and shakespeare it only took two or three semesters and i was out pretty much the study into mormon history just confirmed what i had already concluded i tell people that i lost faith in christianity long before i lost faith in mormonism that may sound strange but i grew up immersed in the mormon culture and it was tougher to shake off than the actual doctrines of christianity it meant everything to me when i lost faith in christianity i tried for a long time to continue holding on to mormonism in some way shape or form what was at stake only my family my complete moral framework my self esteem just to name a few things while i lost most of my family and had to build for myself a new moral framework as well as rebuild my self esteem it has all worked out in the end but it was scary at times i must admit i wish you all well in your journeys through this vale of tears no path is an easy one but i have never regretted leaving the mormon path to strike out on my own well enough of that crap here is what is in the first tranch mcmurrin liberal education and authentic individualism i couldn t find this anywhere on the net when i checked recently of course you can read it at special collections university of utah but i figure most of you can t get there to do that so please enjoy it is vintage mcmurrin mcmurrin toward a christian ethic this is a devotional he gave in 1959 for the week day religious education series i found it in an old dusty book in the institute library i also have not seen this online at all so if you are a mcmurrin fan it gives a glimpse in to his thinking early in his career while he was still working for the church education system midgley mcmurrin correspondence some of you might get a kick out of this you can go back to the early dialogue issue to read the reviews of mcmurrin s theological foundations midgley also sent a letter to the editors which was published and you can find that there however the editors edited out two paragraphs midgley obviously wasn t happy about that and sent a letter to mcmurrin with a copy of the two missing paragraphs he didn t want mcmurrin to miss them i m sorry for the poor quality it was not the digital age yet i think you can if you struggle make out most everything and fill in the blanks with mcmurrin s response he never sent the response however as i understand it mcmurrin liberal education and authentic individualism mcmurrin toward a christian ethic midgley mcmurrin correspondence leave a comment documents2 posted in documents with tags documents on september 6 2008 by zack letter newell to packer1 letter stanley kimball to packer1 document 2 comments documents1 posted in documents on september 5 2008 by zack does history undermine faith clayton1 clayton letter to packer2 document leave a comment subscribe to random thoughts an error has occurred the feed is probably down try again later recent posts documents 6 documents 5 documents 4 documents 3 documents2 pages about zackc documents subscribe to random thoughts 3rd link down create account log in entries feed comments feed wordpress com june 2026 m t w t f s s 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 jun archives june 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