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second world war the west has completely moved over to the idea of control of airspace control of ability to carpet bomb its enemies and believed it had complete freedom to go where it wanted when it wanted how it wished and that s come to an end and what has brought it to an end is basically cheap electronic components that have allowed states to produce missiles and so iran has actually found the answer to this you bury your missiles you bury the production systems you bury the leadership it was called a mosaic system but it s been very effective and i think you re reading off of that list underlines just how much it is both israel and the united states say that iran has the same capacity in terms of the missiles they don t have an air force but they have missile air dominance at this stage over the gulf and in contrast to the air dominance that the united states has not been able to fully achieve you ask where we are where we are is these talks they re really just to be absolutely clear they re just talks technical talks still at the moment they are the technical teams discussing the straits between oman america is not involved in it although undoubtedly certain mediators will be sort of on the phone all the time to the omanis but my understanding is basically this there s no intention on the part of iran to open hormuz in the sense of opening it to all traffic at zero cost there s no intention to do that it may be opened very cautiously for example to chinese vessels and tankers but it s not going to be opened in the sense of as it used to be secondly the iranians are going to charge fees seven percent is mooted and they are also going to charge 20 percent fines for any vessels that do not stick to the rules set by the new administration for the hormuz straits i think what we re going to see is and the discussions are about the question of whether there are two corridors or one corridor an outward corridor and an inward corridor at the moment there is if you like just one corridor because the iranians have shut the corridor that goes along the coast of the omani shoreline and exits that way by mining it so that one is effectively closed in fact i think just this morning an abu dhabi tanker tried to use that exit and was attacked with missiles and damaged and has turned back so that is still not operating the northern route is under irgc control i think some vessels are passing to china but the amount of passages is very few and so i think that what trump will be faced with is the proposal that iran controls hormuz that it will control passage in and out although passage may be administered by the omanis under irgc ultimate control in other words all the details of vessels will have to be passed to the irgc before they are allowed to enter this route and the process is still going to be completely administered and it is going to be closed this is not part of the negotiating team s remit the majlis in tehran seems to be saying that they are going to produce a law that would forbid in any future time after the war is over that shipping either from the united states or israel will not be allowed passage through hormuz my understanding is none of this is going to come into operation according to the iranians until after an agreement after the war is ended after it s been established that there really is a ceasefire that the us blockade is lifted after sanctions have been lifted on petroleum and oil products from iran for export only at that point will these new regulations fully come into being but this still hasn t been as my understanding put to the supreme leader and passed by the committee that supervises the security they re still discussing it at the technical level and so it may be a little while until the talks are finished but i think it will face mr trump with the very obvious dilemma i mean either he accepts that this is a loss maybe he can accept it we had mr president in just recent hours saying well hormuz it s actually irrelevant i mean in a couple of years we won t need hormuz anyway he didn t mention the red sea and he didn t mention bab el mandeb but he just said hormuz might be irrelevant is this the beginning of preparation for an exit it s too early to say who knows but the question is is trump able after his entire career after his coaching by roy cohn never be a loser you always must be a winner and is he able to stand this or will he try another military action even though as you rightly pointed out that it seems there is really not much point to another military escalation because it won t change anything in terms it won t change the posture of iran of its determination to control hormuz and they are not about to open it and even to start negotiations they would require from the united states that they make commitments upfront in advance and only then would negotiations be even possible but overall as you said in the introduction quite rightly that iran just doesn t believe it s possible to arrive at a complete settlement with mr trump with the administration it is dismissive of the mou it sees that the united states is just using this pattern of threats and then talk of a deal it s all about the markets it s all about manipulation of the oil price and the iranians are laughing at this now now they re setting out pieces of paper which show how many futures were sold just before monday and the whole manipulation is being detailed by the iranians and so for them the mou has become much less important because they see that it s really not intended to be a document from which negotiations could develop could issue forth because really it is all about manipulating markets because trump s main concern really now is markets and the oil price and inflation and above all the bond market chris hedges well you have all these accusations of insider trading within the trump administration it is possible i suppose that like the late roman empire the emperors in the late roman empire would go up to gaul and the germanic tribes would beat back the roman legions and then the emperors would just stage a triumphal march through the city of rome even though they d been shellacked that is very much in trump s vein so reality and loss and defeat may be facts but they re not necessarily facts that trump will acknowledge i want to talk a little bit about the agreement because the original agreement was supposed to be carried out in phases i think it s pretty clear that iran will not sign something like that again this was an unprovoked war it was a criminal war of aggression under international law and verified by the head of the un and others and iran wants reparations it wants its frozen assets about 100 billion released and that s the one side and then of course it wants a guarantee that it will not be attacked again and on the other side trump is facing the midterms his poll numbers are very low and i think it s clear the white house desperately wants even if it s an interim agreement some kind of an agreement that they can limp through with for the next few months certainly until november and i wondered if you can address those two competing concerns alastair crooke yes and i think what you described is almost a phase of the war that is now behind us in the sense that that mou is now widely regarded there s a small faction that doesn t see it in this way but overall the leadership regards the mou as a deceit it was a deceit that was deliberately done because the purpose of it was simply to get hormuz open as quickly as possible and so it was signed up without any real serious intent of taking it to any sort of conclusion so i mean there is no real sense that this is the building block towards an agreement that will be respected by trump it was in their view a deceit and therefore we are in a different phase i think that phase is to increase the pressure on trump by first of all in the markets in terms of the red sea is now closed the houthis again have been attacking saudi tankers that are trying to enter and go to the yanbu port in the red sea to load oil and stopping that so there s very little traffic it s open to other traffic but not to saudi tankers so the saudis i think this is the first time that they ve exported no oil at all during this period zero oil chris hedges and just to interrupt to interrupt alastair i believe the saudis were exporting about six million barrels a day through the red sea is that correct alastair crooke that s it and it s now down to zero overall it s now down to zero and the uae has not been exporting oil during this period either and so the main element is that iran sees it as leverage because you mentioned if you like the effects on the oil markets but actually what is so important is really the type of oil that is lacking that is crucial to their thinking in the equation because what iran and the hormuz strait was supplying were basically the middle distillates of oil not light oil america has light oil from the fracking fields and permian and so on and venezuela has the ultimately heaviest oil almost like tar sitting on the other side but the middle distillates are the ones that provide diesel and kerosene for aircraft and those are in drastically short supply the asking price in refineries to get a barrel today of middle distillates is much higher than in the future the markets are in backwardation the crisis is in diesel and in kerosene and that s one of the reasons i m not sure we d see a major attack on iran because aircraft if you re going to do a major air operation it takes a lot of aviation fuel to mount that sort of operation f 15s f 35s consume it by the gallon and have to be refueled after 250 miles or so so i think one part of this is going to be the leverage the second part that we re going to see and change is also the idea of being shifting and this is what we re seeing in this phase iran has moved to a more proactive stance they re not simply going to wait till the united states attacks and then consider or have already lined up the targets that it s going to attack in retribution they are keeping up a quiet level of proactive attacks on the united states on gulf states and at the moment israel is not involved but they are keeping up a level of military proactive force in other words extending the war making it extremely difficult for trump to say he s won the war to put pressure on him and at the same time not to go so far that it explodes the whole situation into a big war but to continue to attack vessels as i say abu dhabi tanker adnok the state oil company was attacked just in the recent hours while these talks are going on in oman they haven t stopped and it s not in response to an american attack so proactive attacks and the sense increasingly is that trump is under pressure and they think that iran feels it has the cards as trump calls it that they are in a better position and that they see that if they are going into a long war with the united states then they have the capacity and control over hormuz is crucial because they can finance a long war if they have the fees and the passage charges for hormuz it s estimated at about 100 billion a year you can finance a war in that way so the thinking is changing a little bit towards putting more pressure on trump and not looking to an agreement my understanding is we ve gone back to the sense that iran has had for some time is that this will not be settled in some sort of deal that ultimately they ve thought for long time that a war with the united states was inevitable that that was the only way out of the predicament in which iran has been trapped for the last 47 years and that this war was inevitable it was going to come and i think that if it comes they feel they are ready for it and in a much better position than mr trump in washington as the pressures on the oil markets bite and also as the military realities of washington become obvious the inability to fire standoff weapons the inability to really do damage to the missile cities so what is he going to attack pickaxe mountain it s a granite mountain with whatever facilities it has buried a thousand meters under granite i mean all that would happen is he d bounce bombs off it it wouldn t hit it one of their missile cities has now been hit 45 times by american bombing during that process and still half an hour afterwards it was firing missiles from that same site so i think we re in a different sort of atmospherics different phase to increase the pressure on the united states because the appetite for a quick deal is not there and that is very clearly reflected on the ground in iran we saw this during the funeral process and others the iranian mood has become quite changed it s triggered something much more profound sort of triggered a memory of iran as a major civilizational power as something that has been a dominant influence in the region for thousands of years and is being treated with no respect and discourtesy and called scum and this has produced a very tough mentality i think amongst the young so what you saw was not people on the streets saying come on let s have a deal we want to get back to a deal i mean the call is we want revenge that s what the young are shouting for that s what we saw in those huge gatherings that took place at the funerals both there and in iraq and in iraq too three cities each one producing four to five million people on the streets to mark the funeral of the late supreme leader chris hedges i want to ask about the effects of this war within the region but before i do i wondered if you could address the potential consequences of a prolonged closure of both the bab el mandeb and the strait on not just necessarily the oil markets but on the global economy alastair crooke it s difficult to give you a straight quantitative answer to that because so much is unknown we are in the middle or at least the united states is trying to deal with a major crisis in japan of the japanese yen falling precipitously and america trying to bail out bessent trying to bail out japan from its collapsing currency and having to resort to sell off euros in order to buy yen to try and support it why is japan important well because it has 1 2 trillion of u s treasuries but also because of its strange situation for decades it s had such low interest rates that it has been a boon of course to wall street because they could borrow cheaply in japan and lend expensively in the us and it was effortless profits that were made in this way and suddenly interest rates are rising and they are going up and much of japanese economy about 14 are really zombie economies by which i mean they don t make enough profits to cover their debts i mean in other parts of the world you might say they re bankrupt but they re calling them zombie companies that s 14 of the economy trying to keep this up without showing any signs of further weakening 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