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out of various solar and wind power companies such as solyndra that went belly up how many resources were saved during the process none it was nothing more than an enormous waste solyndra lasted a whopping 6 years and got close to 700 million in subsidies or is that what you would call good waste because it was wasted in an attempt to do something that you value fuck peter do you have any fucking clue how many regulations there already are do you realize that no matter how many regulations you make it will never be enough you will always be able to identify something you don t like something that stains the symmetry and as long as you can do that you re not going to be content with any of the regulations currently in place you re going to demand more especially if you re already convinced that the government has the power to rescue us all and fix all our woes gently beating us into submission regulations serve to increase the costs of staying in business businesses serve us unless they ve been hijacked by bureaucratic interests so making it more expensive for other people our friends and neighbors to serve us or sometimes even driving those people out of the market entirely will somehow ultimately be good for us how because all decreasing market plurality does is screw us over monopolies are not good stringent regulations force people out of business and tend to raise prices rising prices and strengthened monopolist powers hooray regulations are a huge source of inequality because they often prevent honest well intentioned people from participating in the market regulations are an especially effective authoritarian tool just look at how eager people are to cripple businesses businesses that serve them with regulations in the name of progress it s much easier to advance the power of an aspiring authoritarian regime when the majority of the population is begging for it but let s be clear progress doesn t come from regulations progress comes from innovation and productivity levied regulations make it more difficult for companies and even individuals to maintain productivity and invest money toward innovations they have also been used in the past to prevent certain audiences from participating in certain markets they induce exclusivity rather than plurality regulations are only good for those who are already firmly established for everyone else well tough shit can t afford to comply well too fuckin bad oh and if the business community as a whole fights against regulations then why is it that so often the most successful corporations are the ones pushing for the regulations because they know that it ultimately works in their favor because it pressures their upcoming competitors who can t afford the costs of compliance out of the market explain this shit oh and something else i just thought of if the business community is oh so powerful and they re all fighting against regulations then how have they come to be regulated if you need a more visceral example look at what the developing nations are doing as they struggling to gain economic growth and raise their standard of living it is all being done at the long term expense of the environment dude give me a fucking break see you re entire premise here is that since certain segments of society can afford green technology that those individuals should then provide that infrastructure to every developing region so many problems with this for one that last paragraph seems to be suggesting that you mr joseph don t really give a shit about the people within those regions those dirtier energy technologies are cheaper than current green technologies much cheaper right now many developing regions simply need to get on their feet cheaper energy while admittedly dirtier is the only real viable option for them the way you seem to want it done simply isn t feasible well that s because of money and greed and blah blah blah fuck you start over from the beginning you d rather they wait around for green technology to become viable and affordable before they should be allowed to try and improve their quality of life meanwhile they re rummaging through trash piles trying to find enough to survive the night actively preventing the people in poorer regions from finding ways to provide for themselves is supposed to help us all out because hey if they re hopelessly impoverished then they won t be polluting the environment guess what underdeveloped cultures use for heat and fuel when there s no coal or oil can you guess that s right they use wood lots and lots of wood but hey perhaps deforestation is better than developing coal and oil power but in reality peter you d prefer they skip right over the coal and oil part and jump right into solar panels wind farms which require tree free land to maximize effectiveness and hydro electric dams well wouldn t that be nice but integrating these technologies would require specialists considering how technologically intensive they are forcing such technologies on these developing regions will most likely serve to increase inorganic economic inequality these technologies are complex and expensive for us here in the us so how the crap are we going to be able to provide them to all of the impoverished regions all across the globe who s going to maintain them who s going to foot the bill and yes it would cost money because it would cost a tremendous amount of effort and resources and that s what money represents preventing cultures from developing the means to effectively accomplish their goals will not create sustainability it will simply deny those people the ability to organically become more efficient with their time and resources but hey it s ok if their lives are kept shitty because at least it won t make my air quality any worse unfortunately the current predicament is that the governments of the developing regions have the ultimate say it doesn t necessarily matter what steps are taken by the inhabitants to improve their circumstances if those in charge fight against it it s unlikely to happen and quite honestly most third world nations are third world nations because of the way their government s behave because either their government confiscates their productivity or competing pre governments like the lra do most likely these governments and pre governments gangs are not going to allow the inhabitants to coalesce organically to surmount the problems they face as has been the case throughout history many of these governments will jerk the average citizen around to no end shaking out any extra motivation or productivity and collecting it for themselves the perks of being in charge ya know china s push for massive industrialization and growth has been enabled by keeping low environmental standards and now it has 16 of the world s most polluted cities 10 and again if you look closely all developing nations are doing the same they simply can t afford more green industrial methods oh yes china is the perfect example of how market economies lead to pollution here is a perfect example of why your criteria peter your criteria for determining what constitutes a market economy is totally bogus you know it must be awfully convenient for you to lump all the different economies in the world together because all you have to do to prove how they fall short is find any abhorrent conditions anywhere in the world and poof you have your examples for why the market fails but this is what happens when you use such overgeneralized all encompassing criteria all the economies in the entire world fit this criteria and so you can point to virtually anything as an example of why markets shouldn t exist but as i ve hopefully shown the logic is flawed beyond all reason fubar oh and developing nations can t afford green technology so they should be forced to have it anyway even though most of it still doesn t work all that well and will probably have to be replaced in 5 years as far as resource overshoot and biodiversity loss perhaps the most clear description of this clash was made in the 2010 convention of biological diversity report in 2002 192 countries got together can agreed to work to slow biodiversity loss only to come back 8 years later completely defeated stating none of the twenty one sub targets accompanying the overall target of significantly reducing the rate of biodiversity loss by 2010 can be said definitively to have been achieved globally actions to promote biodiversity receive a tiny fraction of funding compared to infrastructure and industrial developments moreover biodiversity considerations are often ignored when such developments are designed most future scenarios project continuing high levels of extinctions and loss of habitats throughout this century 11 to me this is a great example of just how ineffective government entities are at getting things done a big reason for this is because lawmakers are often ignorant of ecology and don t have any comprehension of the real world physics of cause and effect the vast majority of the time government attempts to fix problems only serve to exacerbate them and of course why would any of this be a surprise our economy literally has no structural incentive to adjust there is no direct market reward to preserve resources habitats or reduce consumption in general all it knows is that people need to keep buying stuff and the more they buy the better everything should be demand it s a thing in a free market devoid of economic fuckery from empowered assholes business is a slave to individual demands as well as amalgamated individual demands or what we might call collective demands no other way to make money demand responsibility and refuse to support the companies that you deem to be irresponsible tell your friends to do the same and explain why you believe it to be so that s progress the organic way so i ask again given the market economy requires consumption in order to maintain demand for human employment and further economic growth as needed is there a structural incentive to reduce resource use biodiversity loss the global pollution footprint and hence assist the ever increasing need for improved ecological sustainability in the world today the answer is no there is only the external incentive meaning the frustrated outcry of concerned citizens demanding this or that change which in truth simply wont do anything in the long run why because it goes against the most basic premise of the market functionality itself now you re saying that demand doesn t effect anything i m saying that it does but that popular demand never reaches the pockets of a lot of businessmen because the government acts as a buffer and rewards companies for things that the customers wouldn t so like pavlov s dogs they respond to the group that brings them the goods make sense the only true solution is to overcome the structural flaw not by fighting it with legislation but by changing the system to do that we must replace the current economic model with one that structurally incentivizes and rewards conservation true technical efficiency and overall sustainability as i have been pointing out the market if permitted to function will accomplish these goals if you re still confused as to how simply start this analysis over from the beginning and take notes and as a final note right now it is safe to project that due to this habitat destruction diversity loss resource over shoot and co2 pollution we very well could be entering the period of the sixth great extinction on earth and unless thing change rapidly the next generation will be one of great suffering and disorder yes if things continue down the path that they seem to be on now then there very well could be great suffering and resource shortages etc etc but again this would be because empowered politicians are allowed to warp our behavioral patterns by incentivizing and disincentivizing specific actions this serves to concentrate and dilute evolutionary cultural selective pressures pressure to avoid going to jail pressure to not go awol pressure to please the rulers gaining favor and reward for obeying high commands pressure to not let my dna perish for simple disobedience to caesar unfortunately within the current system it can be very difficult to detail all the problems this is because our contextual understanding of social physics has been nearly irreparably warped by a long history of social command structures aka governments that ceaselessly alter the rules of survival essentially telling our brains that the physical environment has changed all because you can now be harmed and or killed simply for displeasing the ruling ruler if you think that hundreds of thousands of years of shifting rules of survival due to the whimsical ignorant dictates of different governing bodies has not had an effect on our cognitive capacities think again our minds are tangled so severely that our evolutionary trajectory has likely been permanently warped no matter where we go from here on out millions of years down the road our minds may always carry the scars of this period of intellectual darkness and blind obedience to authority rant over hey we re finally at question two question two in an economic system where companies seek to limit their production costs cost efficiency in order to maximize profits and remain competitive against other producers what structural incentive exists to keep human beings employed in the wake of an emerging technological condition where the majority of jobs can now be done more cheaply and effectively by machine automation sigh this feels to me like another fallacy though if i had to be honest i m not sure what kind this would be it feels like a variant of begging the question because peter you ve phrased the question in such a way that it channels every possible response toward a specific predetermined conclusion in effect you re forcing the response that you want to hear that s called being intellectually dishonest though i m sure it was an honest mistake but the result is another non question you re making a statement rather than asking a question which is mldly disingenuous you seem as though you re not honestly seeking answers but rather are seeking to hook unsuspecting passersby into supporting your narrative but i can understand the motivations so no worries let s examine the question further in an economic system where companies seek to limit their production costs cost efficiency in order to maximize profits and remain competitive against other producers p reserving resources while lowering prices for the consumer overall what structural incentive exists to keep human beings employed t he incentive to keep people employed comes from the people themselves dippus do you want to employ people for a specific task then go ahead do you want to work in a specific field or on a specific hobby what s stopping you time physics evolution these things do not give a fuck about your...