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submission so much that they implore both men and women to submit to one another mutually nor do egalitarians find submission to pastoral leadership the governing authorities or the requirements of one s employer to be ethically problematic unless they are abusive nor do they believe inequality is intrinsically bad they can fully agree with the conclusion of the following argument alex pruss gives there is nothing intrinsically bad in heaven there is inequality in heaven god is in heaven and humans are in heaven and there is infinite inequality there so inequality is not intrinsically bad so the article i think misrepresents egalitarians what they actually believe is that maleness neither qualifies one for authority nor does femaleness disqualify one for authority that is to say roles of authority and subordination that are ontologically grounded in maleness and femaleness do not exist therefore patriarchy is to be rejected it does not follow from this however that there are no ontologically grounded hierarchies jesus is worthy of obedience precisely because he is the son of god part of that obedience is imitation he did not consider equality with god something to be used to his own advantage rather he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant if the greatest possible being can give up his divine rights then so can men who wrongly believe they have patriarchal rights over their wives in any case the christian gospel undermines patriarchy filed under uncategorized 1 comment a reply to denny burk on the centrality of complementarianism posted on august 30 2012 by adam there has been some discussion about why organizations like together for the gospel and the gospel coalition include a complementarian clause in their confessional statements see their respective videos here and here carl trueman speaks for many when he says he is confused by this emphasis on gender roles he writes w hy is the complementarian egalitarian debate such a significant bone of contention in parachurch cobelligerent organisations whose stated purpose is to set aside issues which divide at a church level but which do not seem to impact directly upon the gospel why for instance is this issue of more importance than say differences over baptism or understandings of the lord s supper historically and confessionally those have been the issues that divide so it is strange to see the adjective confessional applied to movements which actually sideline the very doctrinal differences which made protestant confessions necessary in the first place this is not a new question however and denny burk gives an answer in the form of a metaphor every year i visit my dermatologist for a check up in those examinations he looks at everything growing on or under my skin to see if there is anything that needs to be removed every year he observes a number of moles skin tags and other unseemly blemishes for aesthetic reasons he ll sometimes suggest that i have one or more of these blemishes removed a suggestion that i typically refuse on two occasions however my doctor has identified blemishes that he insisted must be removed because they were precancerous i rely on the doctor to distinguish the benign blemishes from those that will develop into something that is malignant neither type of blemish will kill me but what grows out of the latter type of blemish can indeed end my life differences over secondary theological issues are like those blemishes by themselves they are merely theological blemishes that do not necessarily threaten the central issues of the gospel like those blemishes however some of them have the potential to turn into a theological cancer some secondary issues have more deadly potential than others and we all have an obligation to be able to distinguish the former from the latter two reasons are given to explain why egalitarianism is likened to a cancerous mole first there is what i call the tortuous gymnastics objection as articulated by lig duncan the denial of complementarianism undermines the church s practical embrace of the authority of scripture thus eventually and inevitably harming the church s witness to the gospel the gymnastics required to get from i do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man in the bible to i do allow a woman to teach and to exercise authority over a man in the actual practice of the local church are devastating to the functional authority of the scripture in the life of the people of god the second is the new path to liberalism argument as stated by mark dever and more precisely by wayne grudem dear reader you may not agree with me on this and i don t desire to be right in my fears but it seems to me and others many who are younger than myself that this issue of egalitarianism and complementarianism is increasingly acting as the watershed distinguishing those who will accomodate sic scripture to culture and those who will attempt to shape culture by scripture you may disagree but this is our honest concern before god it is no lack of charity nor honesty it is no desire for power or tradition for tradition s sake it is our sober conclusion from observing the last 50 years i thinks this a great discussion and i left this response in the comments of denny s post denny thanks for this post some thoughts in response first the duncan quote the gymnastics required to get from i do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man in the bible to i do allow a woman to teach and to exercise authority over a man in the actual practice of the local church are devastating to the functional authority of the scripture in the life of the people of god i ve never understood why the tortuous gymnastics charge picks out egalitarians and not others are not the same broad principles applied to jesus s command do not to resist an evil person matt 5 39 such that when considering cases like rape the victim is allowed to resist an evil person the point is there is a time and place where this instruction holds and where it does not likewise as egalitarians tend to read paul s restrictive passages the purpose of the restrictions are explained as taking into account uneducated and contentious women again we might disagree about this but the authority of scripture is not at stake rather it is our interpretation of scripture just because someone holds a more expansive range of cases where an imperative applies does not mean one holds a stronger view of the authority of scripture we would not grant that to a hardcore pacifist why should we grant this to duncan no good reason i can see second i think the sort of arguments which conclude egalitarianism is a new path to liberalism are flawed they represent the so called track record like this 1 if one holds to egalitarianism then one probably undermines the authority of scripture 2 if one undermines the authority of scripture then one is probably on a path to liberalism 3 there are people who hold to egalitarianism 4 therefore there are people who are probably on the path to liberalism call this the argument in order for the argument to go through one has to show that premise 1 is true that is that holding to egalitarianism is a causal factor that at least increases the likelihood of undermining the authority of scripture but i think this is far from clear in light of the sizable contingent of scholars who truly hold to the authority of scripture and egalitarianism obviously holding to egalitarianism isn t a sufficient condition for undermining the authority of scripture a la roger nicole and of course neither it is necessary one can deny the authority of scripture while rejecting egalitarian gender roles plenty of conservative muslims and jews do just that therefore i think the argument would be better stated like this 1 if one does not hold to the authority of scripture then one is probably on a path to liberalism 2 if one is on a path to liberalism then one probably holds to egalitarian gender roles 3 there are people who do not hold to the authority of scripture 4 therefore there are people who probably hold to egalitarian gender roles of course evangelical egalitarians would agree with this argument because the determinative issue is whether one holds to biblical authority not egalitarian gender roles filed under complementarianism leave a comment william webb s appendix b the traditional interpretation of 1 timothy 2 14 posted on june 9 2012 by adam complementarians typically appeal to church history to buttress their view that christians have always believed that women were equal in being but different in role this is suspicious considering what people men have taught about women particularly from 1 timothy 2 14 william webb s book slaves women and homosexuals has the following quotes in an appendix demonstrating that in reality the christians believed women were inferior in their being and therefore inferior in their role didymus the blind 313 398 being strong i e stronger that the woman who was weak under satan s deception t he man is more able than the woman to fight and defend himself against the trickery of the adversary he would not and will not let himself be drawn into seduction like eve john chrysostom 347 407 for thus they will show submission by their silence for the sex is naturally somewhat talkative and for this reason he restrains them on all sides the woman eve taught once and ruined all on this account therefore he saith let her not teach but what is it to other women that she suffered this it certainly concerns them for the sex is weak and fickle and he is speaking of the sex collectively augustine 354 430 and satan first tried his deceit upon the woman making his assault up on the weaker part of that human alliance that he might gradually gain the whole and not supposing that the man would readily give ear to him or be deceived but that he might yield to the error of the woman for not without significance did the apostle say and adam was not deceived but the woman being deceived was in the transgression epiphanius 365 403 the female sex is easily mistaken fallible and poor in intelligence it is apparent that through women the devil has vomited this forth as previously the teaching associated with quintilla maximilla and priscilla was utterly ridiculous so also is this one come now servants of god let us put on a manly mind and disperse the mania of these women the whole of this deception is female the disease comes from eve who was long ago deceived humbert de romans 1194 1277 in connection with the preacher s person we should notice that he must be of male sex i do not permit a woman to teach 1 tim 2 12 there are four reasons for this first lack of understanding because a man is more likely to have understanding than a woman bonaventure 1217 1274 the devil envious of man assumed the form of a serpent and addressed the woman by this temptation sought to bring about the fall of the weaker woman so that through her he might then overthrow the stronger sex but it was by the devil s own cunning that he approached the woman first it is easier to overcome the weak a clever enemy always attacks a stronghold at its weakest point thomas aquinas 1225 1274 the human group would have lacked the benefit of order had some of its members not been governed by others who were wiser such is the subjection in which woman is by nature subordinate to man because the power of rational discernment is by nature stronger in man st paul says that women should keep silence in the churches and i permit no woman to teach or have authority over men 1 tim 2 12 but this especially touches on the grace of speech accordingly that grace speaking publicly to the whole church does not pertain to women because generally speaking women are not perfected in wisdom so as to be fit to be entrusted with public teaching erasmus 1466 1536 eve was deceived first when believing the serpent and beguiled by the enticement of the fruit she disregarded god s command the man could not have been taken in either by the serpent s promises or by the allure of the fruit only love for his wife drew him into a ruinous compliance martin luther 1514 1572 paul thus proved that by divine and human right adam is the master of the woman that is it was not adam who went astray therefore there was greater wisdom in adam that in the woman where this occurs there is the greater authority he adam persevered in his dominion over the serpent which did not attack him but rather attacked the weaker vessel just as he does today john knox 1514 1572 and first where i affirm the empire of a woman to be a thing repugnant to nature i mean not only that god by the order of his creation has spoiled woman of authority and dominion but also that man has seen proved and pronounced just causes why it should be for who can deny but it is repugnant to nature that the blind shall be appointed to lead and conduct such as do see that the weak the sick and impotent persons shall nourish and keep the whole and strong and finally that the foolish mad and frenetic shall govern the discreet and give counsel to such as be sober of mind and such be all women compared unto man in bearing of authority i except such as god by singular privilege and for certain causes known only to himself has exempted from the common rank of women and do speak of women as nature and experience do this day declare them nature i say does paint them forth to be weak frail impatient feeble and foolish and experience has declared them to be inconstant variable cruel lacking the spirit of counsel and regiment and these notable faults have men in all ages espied in that kind for the which not only they have removed women from rule and authority but also some have thought that men subject to the counsel or empire of their wives were unworthy of public office filed under being and role leave a comment f f bruce on galatians 3 28 posted on january 31 2012 by adam i ve always appreciated f f bruce s comments on galatians 3 28 w a meeks thinks that paul is here quoting a baptismal reunification formula which envisaged the restoration of a pristine androgynous image but paul himself is not concerned with any such fantasy he is concerned with practical church life in which men and women like jews and gentiles slaves and free persons are here and now fellow members it is not their distinctiveness but their inequality of religious role that is abolished in christ jesus whereas paul s ban on discrimination on racial or social grounds has been fairly widely accepted au pied de la lettre there has been a tendency to restrict the degree to which there is male and female thus it has been argued that these words relate only to the common access of men and women to baptism with its introduction to their new existence in christ true paul may have had in mind that circumcision involved a form of discrimination between men and women which was removed when cir...
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