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comment section at feministe is derailed by this propensity to be all hey i experienced something only marginally similar to this once and this blog is not representing my experience correctly how dare they not her whole comment but this bit is pertinent before some ass threw me in the spam filter at feministe and left me to linger and linger i will there was a post and thread on cosmetic and medically necessary surgery and the funding thereof i remember being quite vocal in it since i plan on having what s commonly considered cosmetic surgery and because i ve previously had medically necessary surgery that was considered cosmetic by insurance companies for those curious one of my aunts ended up paying for it though it came a bit late due to price and hope though i suspect mainly price at any rate the post and comments ended up being a vicious vociferously verbal diarreah with quite a bit of blaming and no little snark because no one could agree what was medically necessary and what was cosmetic what might be medically necessary for someone else could be cosmetic for me and vice verse but for some reason people can t get that through their heads that there s no hard dividing line in the realm of such surgery when discussing quality of life and quality of life is what if comes down to short version shut the fuck up and listen to people who actually go through these things when they say that someone in this case the op and some of the commenters are being judgemental and hiding behind the thinnest veneer of concerned morality in the name of of all things my bodily integrity and self esteem katniss 9 30 2011 at 8 40 am matlun anyway personally i would rather hear a direct you are wrong acted badly than a patronizing you are incapable of making an independent choice ymmv i would too but the opposite of your choices are constrained to varying degrees by the sexist society we live in is miles away from saying you are incapable of making an independent choice you can make independent choices but at the same time you can also analyze how those choices are influenced by the world you live in this isn t directed at you matlun but just the thread in general what frustrates me in this thread and discussions about choosing your husbands last name or choosing to shave your pubic hair or any other controversial choice in feminism is the people who refuse to accept that society has influence on their choices that does not mean i want to tell them they did not make their choice validly and because it s what they really did want it just means that in the end i get sick of hearing for example i shave my legs only because i want to and societal pressure had absolutely no influence on me ever to me that s almost arrogant it is acting as if you are above all those other people in the world who are in big and small ways influenced by the society they live in it s essentially claiming to live in a vacuum and that isn t possible and let me point out that i apply my own logic to my choices for example i have done nude modeling many times for several different nudie sites i made the choice to do so freely and it is something i wanted to do that doesn t mean that my choice was completely free from societal expectations about what is sexy in women or an ingrained desire to be praised for my looks or any number of other influences but i did not make that choice in a vacuum no matter how freely and happily i made it that doesn t mean i have no agency it just means the agency i have still exists within this particular society yeah there does seem to be an implied either or that goes on with regards to choice doesn t there i also notice the societal implications on choice are always framed in the negative though not saying the poster above did this i m commenting in general on what i ve noticed as in you want from society and you match the ideal or want to match it so you get this done to portray it or do this to make it happen so your choice really isn t a choice so much as further confirmation of your indoctrination to societies current ideals of beauty and gendered expectation and that isn t true either sometimes you do things because you yourself think whatever it is deserves to be portrayed and admired if only by yourself i have a screen saver full of pictures quite a few of them are of people done in artistic shots ones i don t seem to find in general quite a few of them are also of larger people one in particular makes me exceedingly happy it s of a white i m assuming guy middle age balding heavy a bit hairy and in a pair of pink underpants standing almost on toes with arms upraised and beaming at a spot just beyond your field of vision the joy seen on that face in the way the body is positioned in the body itself absolutely priceless i ve no bloody clue why that picture was taken but it s as good an example as any of flouting social expectations considering the person there doesn t meet the current western media standards of attractive what with being unapoligetically larger with visible hair and one hell of a beautific expression might i add point being sometimes things are done to celebrate variety and difference not with the aim be similar the same can goes for the expectations of surgery i know that wasn t the original topic but people seem to be deliberately forgetting that not everyone gets surgery to please others the whole post is based on such an assumption to the exclusion of all others this comment is long but well worth it every word donna l 9 30 2011 at 12 28 pm jose body hate what the hell is that unless you re the elephant man if you hate your body the problem is the hate not the body i don t mean to pick on you jose but this is simply another example of the ciscentrism that s so rampant here i hated my body once upon a time and i wasn t the elephant man have you ever heard of gender dysphoria or are you one of those who tells trans people to fix their delusional minds before they start mutilating their allegedly healthy bodies and that applies to your earlier condemnation of breast implants too at what point if any are breast implants acceptable for trans women never what if someone takes hormones for years and basically nothing happens as has been the case for some trans women i know particularly when they begin transition later in life should they just live as women without breasts and learn to accept their god given lot if not and it s sometimes ok for trans women then why not for cis women too as far as i m concerned it s not always so easy to draw the line between medical including psychological necessity and culturally influenced vanity i know damn well that the only reason i ve always wanted my nose fixed is that i ve internalized cultural standards of beauty that exalt northern european features and consider traditionally jewish features noses in particular to be ugly but that doesn t make my feelings any less real it s a good thing probably that i ve never had the money to spare to get my nose fixed or i would have done it years ago it also helped to realize that my nose didn t in any way prevent me from being perceived as a woman when i transitioned a jewish woman perhaps nttawwt but a woman nonetheless by the way to some of you who responded to my comments last night i m well aware that what the op and others were addressing was not medically necessary labiaplasty or other genital surgery not that the line is so easy to draw whether for genital surgery or breast augmentation or anything else i m neither stupid nor ignorant i was however entitled to point out the fact that some people s rhetoric was so broadly condemnatory that it far outstripped their intentions and that when you talk about women and their decisions to cut up their bodies and suggest that there s no possible justification for it you might want to keep in mind that trans women are women too the predictability of the sneering defensiveness of some of the responses doesn t make it any more acceptable natasha is there a difference what s the difference between a cis gendered sexed woman getting cosmetic surgery on her genitals or breasts or face or whatever say to match those of the latest playboy bunny centerfold cuz that s how she feels she should have been born and a transwoman or transguy getting genital or top surgery what do you think donnal when you present the contrast like that it s easy to make the distinction in real life it s not always so easy things aren t always at one end or the other of a spectrum running from medical necessity to complete vanity which is why as much as the idea of purely cosmetic labiaplasty makes me queasy it isn t for me to decide that anyone s decision to have any kind of surgery to alter her body is in fact purely cosmetic returning again to breast augmentation would i be happier if 11 years of hormone therapy had had more of an effect on my body maybe but i m lucky enough to be only 5 2 tall so that what did happen is sufficiently proportionate to my size that it allows me to blend in as female and it simply isn t important enough to me to do anything further not to mention the risk of loss of sensation so for me a decision to have breast augmentation surgery would in fact be based entirely on vanity but if another trans woman in the same position as i am made the decision to have breast augmentation surgery i d never in a million years presume to to say it was solely because of vanity for her culturally influenced so what is she supposed to wait for the utopia in which breast size would mean nothing to anyone the same way those who oppose grs would have trans women wait until the utopia in which supposedly nobody would want to alter their bodies because all bodies are equally valued not that i buy for a moment that the need and desire for grs would vanish in such a utopia on the other hand genital surgery was sufficiently important to my identity and sufficiently necessary to help with my body dysphoria that i went through with it a couple of years ago regardless of the risks both general risks and those personal to me given all my serious health issues including crohn s disease and a long history of severe complications from every major surgery i ve ever had without going into too much detail most of those risks unfortunately happened for me including very serious complications requiring emergency hospitalization in the nearest hospital in montreal where i spent six days in the er while they decided what to do with me followed by an exciting ambulance ride to mt sinai hospital in new york city where i was told we ve never had a patient like you before and don t know how to take care of you in terms of that aspect of my care all of which ended up in less than perfect cosmetic results which i may or may not do something about someday i d still do it all over again though it was worth it so let s not forget that there s a cosmetic element to grs too and that there are plenty of trans women who decide on a surgeon based at least in part on photographic examples of their surgical results there s one website in particular that has dozens of examples from different surgeons and i ve known trans women who can get pretty obsessive about which one looks best or the most like the mythical ur vulva and ur vagina the platonic ideal of vulvaness and vaginaness that they have in mind and of course every surgeon does try to achieve a particular standard look which clearly is based on cultural standards of what female genitals are supposed to look like i didn t care so much about specific appearance but i don t condemn for a second those who do given their underlying fear of someone looking at their genitals and being able to tell and saying those aren t real me i ve seen enough examples of female genitals in my life to know that they all look different and maybe i m overly cynical but i m convinced that most straight men wouldn t be able to tell no matter what the results look like as long as everything isn t sideways in the end though i do believe that people should be able to do what they feel is necessary cosmetic or not culturally influenced are not it s not for me to draw lines and i never forget for one minute something that most people here seem entirely clueless about that both historically and today the loudest feminist voices opposing cosmetic surgery belong to the most rabid virulent and disgusting anti trans bigots the germaine greers and janice raymonds and sheila jeffreys and julie bindels of the world in other words people i wouldn t want to be in the same room with let alone be on the same side i think i m in love lucy gillam 9 30 2011 at 3 45 pm you know i ve got a lot of feelings on choices vs influences on whether a post that starts with do not do can be called starting a discussion etc but as the mother of a daughter i have to say that the idea of a bunch of strangers on a blog not only discussing my daughter s medical decisions based on a second hand line in an an article but mocking those decisions make me a little ill the original author and a number of people here are speaking of her symptoms and the solution with a great deal of surety for a situation you haven t even read a first hand account of to say nothing of actual medical facts and yeah that that s rampant paticularly when discussing dis ability and ability of any kind regarding surgery or medical issues fucking disturbing is what it is and if someone thinks discussing surgery and ability with regards to genitals that such conversations don t often involve some level of disablism i ve got the deed to this terrific bridge there s a large startling difference between discussing a medical procedure and why people might get it done and discussing someone s personal medical symptoms and decisions about them donna l 9 30 2011 at 4 42 pm i think some of you keep missing my point maybe i m not being sufficiently clear but if people are intending to limit their comments to cis women why not say so when they make those comments how is your rhetoric is outstripping your intentions not clear especially given the history of exactly the same rhetoric being used against trans women pretty much word for word how exactly is it that anyone is supposed to know that people like jose don t actually mean what they say about women to apply to all women including trans women if they don t say so regardless of the context it s hardly safe to assume that everyone here shares the op s viewpoint i know that using inclusive rhetoric might require a tiny bit of additional effort sometimes but i think it s worth it no matter how many times people repeat that 99 of women are cis so it supposedly should be obvious that that s what everyone means yeah really that that that that that gets damned frustrating i m also frustrated and frankly rather darkly bemused that whole sections of peoples genital wants needs are getting ignored in the making of these wonderful theories ab...