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favicon.ico: playervsdeveloper.blogspot.com/search/label/PVE - Player Versus Developer: PVE.

site address: playervsdeveloper.blogspot.com/search/label/PVE

site title: Player Versus Developer: PVE...

Our opinion (on Monday 04 May 2026 10:20:36 UTC):

website (probably) only for adults * website (probably) only for adults ! YELLOW status (not for everyone) - not for everyone
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Text of the page (random words):
n merits of the system but rather because they have spent years emphasizing the importance of item level ilvl in the game s incentive structure they have no one to blame but themselves that players are now over reacting to anything that affects this meta statistic to understand why we need to look at both the history of ilvl and how it has been used as an incentive making a book keeping stat into an incentive item levels were originally an internal number used to determine how many stats each item got in principle you could use this meta stat after accessing it via third party database or ui add on to compare gear or to argue on the forums that a specific item should have higher stats based on its ilvl but in practical terms it was irrelevant to players for years post launch ilvl shot to prominence midway through the wrath of the lich king era when players began using a third party add on called gearscore to add up the ilvls of a player s gearset as a quick and dirty way to check whether the player s gear was plausible for the content your group intended to complete gearscore was not without controversy but blizzard brought it into the game s base ui anyway adding the average ilvl of the player s gear to the ui and using it as a screening mechanism for the random group finder in patch 3 3 this change happened comparatively late in that expansion cycle and applied primarily to content that players were already routinely and trivially completing easy 5 man heroic dungeons going out to get gear specifically to meet a minimum ilvl to be allowed into content came later most prominently with the addition of the raid finder in cataclysm s final patch during the same window we ve seen each raid expand to three separate tiers of loot differing primarily in ilvl and associated minor bump in stats that only further emphasize that increasing ilvl is an incentive in its own right and not just something that happened incidentally as you upgraded your gear comment update commenters point out that ilvl scaling is actually less linear than i remembered making the upgrade system too powerful not too weak the rest of the reasoning in this post about why focusing on ilvl as an incentive is a bad idea stands and actually makes more sense with the correction a technical increase in power the new item upgrade system in patch 5 1 crossed an important line increasing the ilvl of gear along with marginal bumps to its stats was explicitly used as an incentive the intent was to extend the benefits of continuing to earn valor points from daily quests random dungeons etc by allowing them to be used for small upgrades to certain gear a bump of 8 ilvl s may sound significant until you consider the context in the launch game ilvl s corresponded roughly to the level at which the player obtained the item however max level group content at each of the game s level caps led to dramatic inflation of item levels such that gear at level 90 is approaching ilvl 400 as a result the new system was only a 2 boost to the ilvl of one of your pieces of gear out of 15 16 depending on whether you use a two handed weapon even if you did eventually get this bump across the board i m not familiar with whether every single slot could actually be upgraded this way a 2 increase in ilvl for all of your gear does not directly lead to a 2 increase in dps or other output other factors including your inherent base statistics scaling rules for increased combat ratings and most importantly actual player performance are also going to impact character performance in short this mechanic was technically an increase in character power but functionally small enough that it s all but cosmetic running into the optional debate blizzard s defense of the item upgrade system hinged on two arguments first they state that players will quit if there is not stuff for them to do and that many players will not do any in game activity that does not increase their character power i think we can agree that this is mostly sound reasoning with the caveat that most players would really prefer that stuff for them to do take the form of new content on a more frequent basis rather than incentives to run the old stuff into the ground having said all of that blizzard tried to have it both ways by saying that the upgrades while intended as an incentive to convince players to get valor points are optional this argument is sound from a game design perspective f or all the reasons i discussed above about the actual significance of such a small boost to ilvl unfortunately for blizzard the correct design approach lost a battle of perceptions brought on by their own decisions to emphasize item level in incentive structures players were already complaining that they felt daily quests were not optional because the resulting reputations are required to purchase entry level gear to start raiding allowing item upgrades exacerbated the situation because players eventually either run out of reputations to grind or else acquire superior gear by other means i don t believe the system worked on all gear but it worked on enough gear to make these players feel that they were now obligated to continue doing stuff they did not want to do in order to get valor points to pay for the upgrades i don t think blizzard s position was wrong from a design perspective however as i wrote a few months ago i think they lost this battle for the same reason that they lost the battle over dungeon difficulty early in cataclysm failure of the skinner box blizzard is still in the business of trying to sell a service to customers and you can only get so far by telling a customer who is dissatisfied that the merits of your design trumps their preferences if you tell the customer that they need ilvl directly through minimum requirements for the raid finder and indirectly by using ilvl as an incentive you should not be surprised that they believe they need ilvl once that has happened it is natural for these customers react poorly when told that they have to do something they do not want to do in order to get the ilvl they think they need as tobold points out in a post examining the motivations for botting mmo s have increasingly misused incentives as a means of pushing players into trying other forms of gameplay daily quests dungeons pvp etc that they do not enjoy history has shown time and time again that this can change player behavior but does not change player preferences the numerous unsavory reactions joining pvp matches only to try and sit afk for the currency rewards requiring gearscores far in excess of what content was designed for and threatening to cancel because you feel forced to do daily dungeons are a natural response i recognize that studios are struggling to produce enough material to keep people paying and that they need to get each player to use as much content as possible i recognize that incentives can be the difference between enough players in the dungeon queue to fill groups in a timely fashion and leaving newcomers high and dry in the long term though reducing the game to a skinner box activity that you do only because it is a prerequisite for something you actually want to do e g raiding with your friends is a recipe for burnout and churn this particular example of pushing an arbitrary number far beyond its functional significance was an extreme case but it is by no means the end of the issue posted by green armadillo at 11 18 pm 13 comments labels pvd pve wow wednesday december 12 2012 examining swtor s endgame when i first hit level 50 in swtor i was in no hurry to try the elder game my leveling path went solely through solo story content i don t believe i joined a single group and i was not in the mood to make the transition to grinding dungeons and farming daily quests having returned i have been pleasantly surprised to find the game well designed and executed however given how much progress i made in a single month i can see why bioware is touchy about calling its max level content the endgame swtor s high production value story driven content is especially vulnerable to growing stale with repetition and its incentive curve is already buckling under the pressure of how to accomodate new players grouping for an assassin the hk 51 companion has some interesting design the droid is a specialized dps beast designed to chew through the stronger mobs in daily quests for each five mobs hk 51 damages he can open the next fight by one shotting a strong level mob which can save a lot of time and danger my immediate incentive to jump into swtor s group content was the addition of the hk 51 assassin droid in last month s patch 1 5 though npc companions are only used while solo they take up a slot that is almost certainly better filled with a human player in max level content the quest to obtain this new companion has multiple steps that require group content worse two of the steps that basically require a second player occur in special instances that are specific to this questline with no incentive to ever repeat this content in the future i rushed out to complete them asap for fear that it would no longer be possible to find players who still needed them setting aside the issue of whether players will ever be able to complete this quest chain in the future bioware got what they wanted i claimed the free level 50 starter gear from the mission terminal at the time there was only pvp gear but now you can supplement this with some pve stuff respecced my character into the dps tree that sounded easier to play and jumped into the hard mode flashpoint queue the first few groups got a lousy deal with such a green newbie when solo players complained that this arc required groups many players responded by arguing that grouping should be required for something in a mmorpg i d be curious how many of those players would have changed their minds and concluded that they would rather not have had me taking up a slot in their party the good news is that the learning curve settled down eventually i enjoyed the flashpoint game enough to continue beyond the required two hard mode runs and eventually i picked up enough gear and perhaps experience to vaguely carry my weight incentives ahead but short lived triumph of the very blue speeder bike obtained for running each hard mode flashpoint once your first few group zones at max level in an mmorpg are generally pretty rewarding as everything is an upgrade after running around a dozen hard mode flashpoints each of the eight options once and a few repeats my character has left behind almost all of the endgame starter gear most of my tionese gear the pve starter set i actually bought this stuff with dungeon tokens but players now receive it for free has since been handed down to my companions while i m wearing mostly columi stuff originally found in the easy mode of the game s first raids and a few pieces from the next tiers up unfortunately for the game s longevity very few outright upgrades remain for me in flashpoint content a few pesky drops aside most of the upgrades that i can still obtain come from the black hole commendation vendor like wow swtor hands out raid quality gear as an incentive to keep players running the flashpoints and also at least some daily quests i could see this getting old really quickly given how much non skippable story dialog happens in the flashpoints the other goal i ve been pursuing are cold hard credits on a good day i pull down several hundred thousand credits which i ve been able to use to purchase a variety of stuff legacy perks and f2p unlocks to use when my subscription expires this too has a limit especially for the non subscriber with the strict limits on currency overall it was a fun month and perhaps there s another month or so worth of stuff to do at some point but this endgame does not feel sufficiently robust to continue for month after month perhaps it should have been no surprise that the game s subscriber retention suffered as it did posted by green armadillo at 5 06 pm 3 comments labels business models mounts my characters pvd pve social star wars tuesday november 6 2012 optional is the new hard two years ago players were complaining that the dungeons of world of warcraft s cataclysm expansion were not fun because they were too difficult the blizzard response that content should possess non zero challenge was as accurate as it was irrelevant customers were dissatisfied with the level of fun they were having with the results of the design not the quality of the design itself today blizzard argues that various non raid activities such as daily quests and running the looking for raid difficulty in pick up groups are optional for raiding because only the very top difficulty setting is balanced so tightly as to assume that players have the best gear available i like to call this the pants optional argument no mmo i am aware of has a mandatory requirement that characters wear pants but very few players opt to go pantless the choice technically exists but is largely uninteresting as there is almost always no benefit to going without pants and the player would then be obligated to upgrade the rest of their gear to off set the stats from the missing leggings more to the point every bit by which you exceed the theoretical minimum requirement gives the player and the group of 9 24 friends they are raiding with that much more margin for error to help secure victory we could sit here and argue the academic semantic merits all day but this misses the point for the same reason blizzard s 2011 defense of the game s difficulty missed the point if paying customers feel like they are obligated to do something that they do not believe is fun it does not matter if the customer is theoretically incorrect lecturing the customer on why they are incorrect not as good at playing the game as people who are beating the content with the minimum gear and need to find new friends with lower expectations however accurate all of these statements may be is not a good business strategy the structural issues with cataclysm as an expansion probably would not have gone away had the game s initial cadre of heroic dungeons launched with lower difficulty and shorter completion times even so it was an inauspicious start to what turned into the game s least successful era to date if blizzard continues to build a game whose core endgame mechanic is upgrading character performance through acquisition of better gear and continues to require non raid content for access to upgrades that raid players want pandaria may not be off to any better of a start there have been several eras of wow in which certain tanking classes were obligated to intentionally lower their mitigation when attempting content that was significantly below their gear level because their classes were dependent on taking sufficient quantities of damage in order to generate resources several players i knew would remove their char...
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