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er blog decision time the complegalitarian blog has reached another crisis point the level of civil discourse has again degenerated to the point where we need to stop and decide if we can speak civilly enough to each other for the blog to continue please vote in the following poll you may add an additional comment if you wish i suggest that you do not identify yourself comments are closed and hidden but you can still read previous posts please pray for me as i evaluate the poll results and comments added to it i would like to continue providing a forum where we can discuss gender issues for the home and church but i cannot do so unless we are all willing to be civil to each other please keep checking back we need a cooling off and re assessment period i do not know how long the blog will be down probably at least a week if the poll results are not adequate for continuing the blog may be closed many of you have worked hard to be civil on this blog i thank you very much if you wish to email me privately about how we might make this blog safer for everyone my email address is wleman1949 at gmail dot com would you like to see the complegalitarian blog continue yes no yes if there will be greater civility pollcode com free polls posted by wayne leman at 6 49 pm tuesday november 25 2008 reflecting on my first sunday ever with a woman leading i ve been attending a small episcopal church in my area lately this sunday s service was led by a deacon which is what they call a person who has graduated from the episcopal seminary program they serve as a deacon for a year or two and then are ordained as a priest correct me if i m wrong as i m very new to everything in the anglican communion the deacon was a woman i do not remember a time when i did not know that women weren t allowed to be pastors the church i grew up in was a conservative fundamentalist bible church closely resembling calvinist slanting baptist flavor if i had to describe it women were allowed to be active but only so much for example we had an amazing worship leader who was a woman clearly gifted and called for the task but on sunday mornings she stood off to one side still obviously leading and a man stood at the main microphone singing slightly off key so as to keep god pleased women are not allowed to lead men not even when singing you would think that spending the total of my thirty three years in that kind of environment that a woman leading a congregation would be something i would have a hard time with or at least really notice like maybe stare incredulously at for awhile instead of focusing on the responsive reading i was surprised at what actually happened because what actually happened was that i forgot all about it and so did my kids if they even noticed at all it was only after the service talking to my friend on the phone that i really thought about the fact that this was the first time i ve ever been in a service led by a woman she was obviously called to do what she was doing much like the music leader of my childhood it just felt right to have her there there was nothing to stare at she was obviously gifted and responding to her position felt completely normal it would have felt silly to have a man standing up there as a figure head to keep god happy while she spoke and while she led the lord s supper just as it always felt odd to have an un called man up front singing off rhythm and off key while the woman beside him was clearly leading and clearly supposed to be posted by alaska at 10 11 am thursday november 20 2008 both biblical and egalitarian rebecca groothius recently blogged that one can be a christian egalitarian without following the politics of feminism in her first major point she writes biblical equality is not equivalent to the politics of feminism the incessant rhetoric of patriarichal complementarians not withstanding rather biblical equality seeks to understand and explicate biblical teaching regarding the mission and meaning of women and men in the family of god the question specifically at issue is whether or not the believer s authority in christ is conditioned by the gender of the believer feminism on the other hand is fundamentally a political and cultural agenda the question of a woman s biblically based authority in christ is not a question that concerns culture at large but is rather a biblical and theological concern thus a biblical egalitarian is not necessarily a feminist and a feminist is not likely to be a biblical egalitarian how do you think that christian egalitarians diverge from the politics of feminism posted by wayne leman at 10 22 pm thursday november 13 2008 differences between the genders gender differences in pain sensitivity boys dominant dependant girls intimate dependant men more likely to hiccup women more likely to receive negative feedback from others if they are aggressive wiki on the history and concept of gender roles boys and girls brains are different regardless of scientific findings gender stereotypes continue boys brains are bigger testosterone shapes brains women encode memories differently than men says mri plan your head injury around your gender men and women respond to stress differently mri scans say boys brains develop along the same lines as girls only slower so educate accordingly these are just a handful of studies and articles i found while googling whether the studies support an egalitarian or complementarian views is up for grabs but at the very least firming up actual vs perceived or ignored gender differences is a benefit to those on all sides of the spectrum the comments box is open for comments as usual and also for references to studies you ve ran across plus if you cite studies that are proven cross culturally you get bonus points posted by alaska at 1 41 pm wednesday november 12 2008 the strawman sameness to all those who claim that egals spout sameness i don t know where you heard this from but it appears to be a strawman empty caricature that gets presented for demolition every now and then so go ahead demolish it i m right there with you it s not our strawman i don t know who he belongs to christians who believe in biblical equality do not believe men and women are without innate differences we do not wish for men and women to look or act alike we do not wish for christians to all look or act alike thank god he made men and women different but let s not paint all men blue and all women pink trying to emphasize the differences or make new differences god did a fine job that doesn t need improving upon ok end of rant smiles posted by believer333 at 12 08 pm monday november 10 2008 thinking again about 1 tim 3 1 7 i always find it interesting how we arrive at our conclusions do we take into account the differences of languages when there is a question do we do some research on the original language by research i do not mean checking strong s the least accurate dictionary but looking in as many greek english dictionaries we can and checking to see what various scholars think do we consider history and culture of the time do we check what the early churches were doing 300 600 years later are we on the alert for idioms do we consider the differences in greek thinking and hebrew thinking of the biblical era or do we just believe our local leaders because they are leaders and should know are we open to the possibility that no one may know the answer to our questions for certain because it was 2000 years ago and some things have changed beyond comparison 1 tim 3 starts off with pistos ho logos faithful is the saying and continues with ei tis if anyone anyone means anyone not just men episkope orego kalos ergon epithumeo supervision is craving of ideal work he is desiring ok so the faithful saying is that referring to a local well known saying a slogan or colloquialism is that anyone who desires to minister in supervision is desiring a good thing its ideal work it may even imply that it speaks well of the person who desires to serve thus so if someone wants to serve thus we should be proud of him her they deserve a pat on the back for such servantmindedness yet many today would say that if a woman desired to serve in her church in either supervision or ministry diakonos transliterated today as deacon people assume and infer that she is seeking to grasp power but paul specifically said anyone who desires so what do we make of that then we have a list of qualifications for those who are desiring the good work of supervision bruce c e fleming in familiar leadership heresies uncovered lists the furst 12 qualifications as such 1 above reproach the overarching requirement 2 faithful spouse as applicable some were single 3 temperate self controlled cf titus 2 2 5 4 sensible or sober found here and in 2 9a 15b 5 orderly also used in 2 9a 15b 6 hospitable a wordless ministry 1 peter 4 9 11 7 apt at teaching ministry of the word 2 tim 2 24 8 not excessive drinker or not quarrelsome over wine 9 not a striker or not pugnacious or a bully 10 forbearing or gentle phil 4 5 11 uncontentious or not a brawler titus 3 2 12 not avaricious or no lover of money heb 134 5 verses 4 7 are qualities showing spiritual maturity 1 one who leads manages guides own household proistemi before standing leading presiding 2 having own children in subjection with gravity 3 not a novice lest he become puffed up with pride and fall into condemnation 4 having a good testimony reputation among unbelievers outsiders so as not to fall into disgrace and a snare of the devil if we look at the qualities as a list we see they are a list of inner spiritual characteristics that every believer should aim for even being an apt teacher is something every believer can achieve as they mature in their relationship with the lord let the older brethren minister to the younger let us look out for one another etc is a common theme in scripture it is not terribly difficult to look up the meanings of words do the cross references and see this is a reasonable list we can likely all agree upon with the exception of one phrase in vs 2 interpretively translated as husband of one wife in most bibles the greek is simply of one woman man heis gune aner different church denominations and different nations have interpreted this differently some have said it meant one had to be a husband but it seems to me to be a really circuitous route to say that plus there is nothing anywhere in the scriptures that requires one to be married in order to serve the lord another meaning has been that a man must have only one wife versus two or more wives yet while this is a reasonable requirement for any married man it is not one addressed as such in scripture elsewhere another interpretation is that a husband must have married only once not divorced and then remarried this i find very far fetched as there were specific requirements for divorce both before and after christ and divorce was not considered a stigma against the divorcee and then we have the interpretation that because it is mentioning a husband then it must mean that one who wishes to be an overseer must be a man however taking that interpretation would also mean tagging all the other ideas of being married and not twice and having only one wife versus two or more along with it but the direct problem with that interpretation is that it would make paul first words of anyone who desires of non effect it is my opinion that we should read the scriptures in such a way as to not strike out things in other parts of scripture if we understand scripture correctly it should not be a matter of striking out or nullifying other parts but of all fitting together in a reasonable manner according to lucien deiss notes to the french bible the tob edition intégrale p 646 note a this greek phrase was used in asia minor on both jewish and pagan gravestone inscriptions to designate a woman or a man who was faithful to his or her spouse in a way characterized by a particularly fervent conjugal love when i read deiss comment about how this phrase was used on ancient grave inscriptions in turkey where paul and timothy ministered i confirmed it with him myself reaching him by telephone in vaucresson france some might find this insight into 1 timothy 3 2 surprising because modern versions of the bible translate this greek phrase as husband of one wife making this qualification appear to be restricted to men only instead rightly understood this qualification is about faithfulness in marriage by a christian spouse it is not saying that oversight is for men only pages 87 88 think again about church leaders by bruce c e fleming think again series or pg 128 in leadership heresies http www amazon com gp pdp profile a3fyptywielezd so i m only addressing one question of why some think women cannot be elders or deacons i ve shared a few of my reasons why i say that biblically women can serve in any ministry my question to you is how do you arrive at your conclusions for this section how do you take into consideration chapter one and two how about chapter four where paul is admonishing timothy not to neglect his gift 11 14 how about chapter five where paul speaks of elders neither male or female presiding well proistemi perhaps someone can look up proistemi episkope and presbuteros and tell us what they find please share what you think posted by believer333 at 2 17 pm older posts home subscribe to posts atom comment guidelines please word posts and comments so that they reflect biblical character such as speaking the truth in love eph 4 15 do not speculate about the motives of others for believing as they do refrain from using sarcasm focus on issues not personalities avoid generalized statements which you do not support with evidence comments which do not follow these guidelines may be deleted without warning or explanation blog comments are currently moderated subscribe to this blog about us david lang don letitia the damsel peter kirk wayne leman bible search lookup a word or passage in the bible polls with the hope that your answers can help us improve the environment on this blog please check as many of the following which apply for you i am a complementarian and this blog feels safe i am a complementarian and this blog does not feel safe i am an egalitarian and this blog feels safe i am an egalitarian and this blog does not feel safe i am undecided about compism and this blog feels safe i am undecided about egalism and this blog does not feel safe i think this blog could be safer but it will take changes i don t think this blog can be made safer given the rules and people here this blog is a waste of time this blog is a good idea in spite of its flaws pollcode com free polls have you changed your personal position on the complementarian egalitarian issue i am a complementarian and have always believed this to be what the scriptures teach i am an egalitarian and have always believed this to be what the scriptures teach i was ra...